[v1.5] Doom 64: Retribution

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

3 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

Uhmm this IS a TC of Doom 64, an accurate(as possible) TC. absolution and Brutal Doom 64 are NOT accurate.

I don't get what is hard to understand.

 

Watered down Brutal Doom 64? Lol. I would like to think of this as a non-bastardized TC of Doom 64.

 

Now you may ask; "why don't you just play D64EX?" Because not everyone has  the original Cartridge and are not comfortable downloading it from the net.

Again, not hard to understand.

 

oh and If that's still not Good enough for you, He made this because he Can. full stop.

Just a friendly reminder to everyone that whether or not you are okay with downloading a ROM of Doom 64, this mod is exactly as illegal to distribute. It is hypocritical to suggest that Doom 64 Ex makes you uncomfortable because it requires you to pirate a game when Doom 64 Retribution is literally a pirate version of Doom 64.

 

As for this being a "non-bastardized TC", I don't know about that. Retribution pares down a pretty important aspect of what made scene composition work in Doom 64, and as a result many areas still look very "incorrect", no matter how close the map geometry itself matches. There is already a way to emulate Doom 64 lighting in GZDoom that I have specifically informed Nevander about multiple times. I understand that it is a time consuming process and would require a lot of text crunching, but the fact remains that a decision was made at some point not to emulate Doom 64's original lighting.

 

Again, I don't blame Nevander for choosing not to include this aspect of Doom 64; I would have made the same decision. But when you're missing one of the most important parts of the composition of every scene in the game you're trying to emulate, you cannot claim it is faithful to the source material in that regard.

Edited April 5, 2017 by DILDOMASTER666
grammar error.

[Nevander]

There's more to a TC being faithful and accurate than one aspect such as lighting. Just because you are missing one aspect doesn't make it suddenly unfaithful. There's a lot more to it than that. Everything from the textures, sounds, graphics, gameplay, and more. The way you said to emulate the lighting is no longer needed, and I'll be damned if I'm going to go around giving glows to everything. You can give colors directly now, but AFAIK they can't be changed in-game with ACS yet.

 

Since everyone is bitching and complaining about the wording I'll change it. Happy?

 

You know with all this negativity it's getting harder for me to want to continue working on this.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Nevander

[Voros]

I suppose people got confused with the intentions of this TC, and you know what they say about first impressions.

 

TBQH, this is an excellent TC, emulating Doom 64 on GZDoom very nicely, along with extras like the smooth weapons. I'm looking forward to the Retribution episode, see how you bridge the gap between Doom 64 and Doom 2016. That episode is one of the main things here, isn't it? A fan-made sequel to Doom 64 of the sorts?

 

It's like what you said before: don't like it, play EX.

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, DILDOMASTER666 said:

As for this being a "non-bastardized TC", I don't know about that. Retribution pares down a pretty important aspect of what made scene composition work in Doom 64, and as a result many areas still look very "incorrect", no matter how close the map geometry itself matches. There is already a way to emulate Doom 64 lighting in GZDoom that I have specifically informed Nevander about multiple times. I understand that it is a time consuming process and would require a lot of text crunching, but the fact remains that a decision was made at some point not to emulate Doom 64's original lighting.

Remember GZDoom's gradient lighting was a recent addition to GZDoom (which came too late for me to use it in Innocence X2 :(  ), Nevander mentioned that he will be adding the correct lighting to the Mod. What else is there to complain about?

We don't know how deep into production Retribution was before Gradient lighting was implemented.

 

If you don't like it then there is still EX, thats not going away anytime soon.

Edited April 5, 2017 by jazzmaster9

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

The method of lighting I am referring to (GLDEFS) predates Retribution's existence by at least six or seven years.

 

31 minutes ago, Nevander said:

There's more to a TC being faithful and accurate than one aspect such as lighting. Just because you are missing one aspect doesn't make it suddenly unfaithful. There's a lot more to it than that. Everything from the textures, sounds, graphics, gameplay, and more. The way you said to emulate the lighting is no longer needed, and I'll be damned if I'm going to go around giving glows to everything. You can give colors directly now, but AFAIK they can't be changed in-game with ACS yet.

Way to not actually read my post and then assume I'm attacking you.

 

Lighting is pretty important in the overall presentation of a level and the initial omission of the source material's light effects in Retribution just strikes me as ... well, incorrect. Unfaithful, if you prefer. Therefore, I think it's pretty fair for me to say -- just like I did originally -- that the level visuals and the overall composition of every scene in Retribution is unfaithful to the source material. That says absolutely nothing about the quality of the mod.

 

Quote

Since everyone is bitching and complaining about the wording I'll change it. Happy?

 

You know with all this negativity it's getting harder for me to want to continue working on this.

 

Yes, because that makes a whole lot of sense. :/ Let me just post my mod online where everyone can offer critique and then when a handful of people don't like it, I'll just abandon the mod.

 

11 minutes ago, jazzmaster9 said:

What else is there to complain about?

 

I dislike that you went out of your way to discard my criticism on behalf of the mod author with this post. Nevander can ignore my posts on his own, I'm sure.

[Nevander]

32 minutes ago, Voros said:

That episode is one of the main things here, isn't it? A fan-made sequel to Doom 64 of the sorts?

Yes. Before I started any of the new maps I realized it would be beneficial to just redo all the original maps first and create a functioning and SOMEWHAT faithful TC of the game so that I could have the groundwork for any new content, and that also applies to anyone else now. Literally just add the WAD as a resource and you can make new maps in Doom 64 style for GZDoom. All the resources are now there. Now that this is done, new maps can be made a hell of a lot easier. Doing a whole TC just came with the original idea and I branded it as faithful and accurate because in my eyes it was, especially in comparison to the other garbage released so far. Apparently a handful of posters here are so anal about wording that they feel the need to constantly point it out. So with that, I suppose I won't call it faithful anymore. Now it's just another TC. Maybe @Gerardo194's and @Erick194's will be better than mine and they can get the recognition.

[Guest DILDOMASTER666]

2 minutes ago, Nevander said:

Apparently a handful of posters here are so anal about wording that they feel the need to constantly point it out. So with that, I suppose I won't call it faithful anymore. Now it's just another TC. Maybe @Gerardo194's and @Erick194's will be better than mine and they can get the recognition.

 

Like I said, Nevander is perfectly capable of ignoring my posts on his own.

[MaxED]

2 hours ago, Nevander said:

You know with all this negativity it's getting harder for me to want to continue working on this.

HA! Couldn't you just swallow it instead?

[Devalaous]

Alright, about all the stuff about "this version or that version versus that other version and versions yet to be released":

 

Try to look at D64 Retribution as the counterpart to the PSX Doom TC; an accurate conversion thats easily accessible to all, doesnt require ROMs/discs, and highly moddable and user-friendly. Its only at v1.0 right now; as GZDoom expands features, and work continues on this, it will, like the PSX TC, become more and more accurate and modular, obtain multiple episodes to play, and will likely form the base in-between line of Doom 64 ports; people seeking absolute accuracy will gravitate towards EX and the upcoming other port, and more casual types can gravitate towards Brutal. Absolution and GZDoom64 still exist, but will be made fully obsolete by Retribution in time.

 

I already made a music pk3 for Retribution, designed to be user-accessible and easily modifiable like the PSX one is (D64EX isnt really compatible with external music, so what you have is what you get, period). I actually offered it to Nevander before Retribution's release while I was making another one out of PSX tracks. Will be making one from the 20th Anniversary version, but probably not making it available even in lowered quality for a time. Aubrey's awesome, gotta respect his work afterall.

 

What I'd like to see from Retribution as it develops:

• Additional refinement for accuracy
• Toggleable dynamic lights/sky enhancements for the sake of options, much like the existing animation toggles
• An "Absolution" campaign that accurately mirrors the original TC, thus putting that old thing to rest in obsolescence.
• Projects from other teams adding onto Retribution, much like how Lost Levels was made for the PSX TC. How about Doom 1 and Doom 2 remade in the 64 style, levels full of macros and creativity that breathes much more life into those old familiar layouts, for example?

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Personally, I sure would love a Smart Scavenger addon!

[jdagenet]

The Playstation Doom TC is an actual TC. There are no enhancements put into the maps, weapons, etc. It is an exact copy of its console counter part.

 

Calling Retribution a TC is crazy inaccurate. This is not a recreation of the classic, but as I previously said, just another enhancement mod.

 

I wish Nevander would refrain from getting so aggressive just because I'm pointing out some things that don't make sense in the mod's description and what's actually in the mod itself.

Acting like a child and threatning to pull the plug on his own mod just shows he can't take criticism, and in the modding scene this is a serious issue.

[jazzmaster9]

4 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

The Playstation Doom TC is an actual TC. There are no enhancements put into the maps, weapons, etc. It is an exact copy of its console counter part.

 

Calling Retribution a TC is crazy inaccurate. This is not a recreation of the classic, but as I previously said, just another enhancement mod.

 

I wish Nevander would refrain from getting so aggressive just because I'm pointing out some things that don't make sense in the mod's description and what's actually in the mod itself.

Acting like a child and threatning to pull the plug on his own mod just shows he can't take criticism, and in the modding scene this is a serious issue.

What enhancements are there. Aside from the weapons animation (which is optional)?

 

I Dont see any useless Revenants or Nightmare Cacodemons. Lol

[jdagenet]

2 hours ago, jazzmaster9 said:

What enhancements are there. Aside from the weapons animation (which is optional)?

 

I Dont see any useless Revenants or Nightmare Cacodemons. Lol

A custom introduction, level names at the start of the level, dynamic lights, map "fixes".

I also realized even the sectors aren't correctly colored, even though the ability to do so is very well possible in GZDoom (as previously mentioned).

Edited April 5, 2017 by jdagenet

[Jan]

44 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

The Playstation Doom TC is an actual TC. There are no enhancements put into the maps, weapons, etc. It is an exact copy of its console counter part.

 

Calling Retribution a TC is crazy inaccurate. This is not a recreation of the classic, but as I previously said, just another enhancement mod.

 

I wish Nevander would refrain from getting so aggressive just because I'm pointing out some things that don't make sense in the mod's description and what's actually in the mod itself.

Acting like a child and threatning to pull the plug on his own mod just shows he can't take criticism, and in the modding scene this is a serious issue.

 

I see only one person acting like a child in this thread, and it ain't Nevander.

 

Also: do you even know what TC means? It stands for Total Conversion, it does not stand for Historically Accurate To the Last Pixel Conversion of Another Game. It's basically a mod that modifies almost all aspects of the original Doom game into something else, which this mod does.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Jan

[Voros]

20 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

A custom introduction, level names at the start of the level, dynamic lights, map "fixes".

How does this affect the quality? Other than the map fixes, those are all unrelated to the actual progression of the maps, which is where the real fun is. The map fixes in question seem to be very very very minor stuff eg map03's secret.

 

Just play EX. You seem to want a 100% recreation of Doom 64, or aren't happy that this TC isn't faithful (which @Nevanderexplained). 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Voros

[leodoom85]

Instead of labeling this mod as a TC or partial TC or whatever thing you want to name it, I think that you guys can try to collaborate and search for bugs or errors or do something productive rather than wasting time. That way, Nevander will solve the problems that this mod had initially. And this particular topic will lead all of us to nowhere if it keeps saying that is a TC or a mix...I hope that you guys can understand that. 

[Gerardo194]

As I said before, Nevander can make use of our version if he wants in the future. We were supposed to help him but when he said this would be released on March 31st, so we said nothing. We are also busy. Sorry Erick194 for revealing this...

[DoomKnight1984]

I think someone already mentioned that the file is only v1.0...so if anyone had their jimmies rustled, then hope and pray that v1.1 file would include some of those "improvements" or graphics that are "totally accurate" to the original Doom 64.

 

Seriously, all I care most is that if it plays very close to Doom 64 then I'm happy even if there's dynamic lighting and "improvements" involved.

 

Different ports of Doom 64 had their own charms and Nevander's has it's own charm as well.

 

Some people should take a chill pill after this.  

[jdagenet]

2 hours ago, Jan said:

 

I see only one person acting like a child in this thread, and it ain't Nevander.

 

Also: do you even know what TC means? It stands for Total Conversion, it does not stand for Historically Accurate To the Last Pixel Conversion of Another Game. It's basically a mod that modifies almost all aspects of the original Doom game into something else, which this mod does.

No need to break out the dictionary, @Devalaous was only comparing Retribution to the Playstation Doom TC, which isn't even on the same level. I was pointing out that the Playstation Doom TC has earned the right of being called a "Total Conversion" because it is a total conversion.

2 hours ago, Voros said:

How does this affect the quality? Other than the map fixes, those are all unrelated to the actual progression of the maps, which is where the real fun is. The map fixes in question seem to be very very very minor stuff eg map03's secret.

 

Just play EX. You seem to want a 100% recreation of Doom 64, or aren't happy that this TC isn't faithful (which @Nevanderexplained). 

All I'm trying to convey here is that this mod is not a faithful recreation of the classic as @Nevander tried to paint the picture as it is/was.

It really makes no difference to me as to what he does with this because I have a few ways of playing the game as I was just commanded to do just now, but to say this is faithful to the original is a blatant lie.

 

In the grand scheme of things, this mod has no real place. Everything it does has already been done by someone else a few times over. There is real no benefit of playing this mod over any other Doom 64 mod out there, unless of course you're still in denial and claim this mod is a total conversion of the original.

[leodoom85]

3 minutes ago, DoomKnight1984 said:

I think someone already mentioned that the file is only v1.0...so if anyone had their jimmies rustled, then hope and pray that v1.1 file would include some of those "improvements" or graphics that are "totally accurate" to the original Doom 64.

 

Seriously, all I care most is that if it plays very close to Doom 64 then I'm happy even if there's dynamic lighting and "improvements" involved.

 

Different ports of Doom 64 had their own charms and Nevander's has it's own charm as well.

 

Some people should take a chill pill after this.  

More than 10 chill pills I must add...

[Voros]

16 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

In the grand scheme of things, this mod has no real place. Everything it does has already been done by someone else a few times over. There is real no benefit of playing this mod over any other Doom 64 mod out there, unless of course you're still in denial and claim this mod is a total conversion of the original.

I don't care if it's a TC or not. It's a Doom 64 mod that can run on basically any ZDoom-based port and doesn't boast in ZDoom-ism.

 

All I see is Doom 64 on GZDoom, and (in the future) two new episodes to continue the story of Doom. 

 

Also on-the-go Doom 64 via D-Touch :D

[Da Werecat]

15 minutes ago, jdagenet said:

I was pointing out that the Playstation Doom TC has earned the right of being called a "Total Conversion" because it is a total conversion.

Looks like we still need a dictionary, however irrelevant this particular confusion might be.

 

Hacx is a TC. And it's not even a recreation of anything. Total Conversion means that the mod in question replaces everything or nearly everything in the base game. Mo more, no less.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Da Werecat

[leodoom85]

Seriously guys. This TC topic has to stop or it will be dragged endlessly. Nevander did a great job for this mod and this is the reception that he got? And this mod is the first version. Of course it has room for improvement in the future version but...come on guys. Please. Stop wasting time for such nonsense and do something productive. I'm glad that Nevander brought back Doom 64 on GZDoom. And that's all that matters.

[Voros]

I never played Cat And Mouse before, unfortunately, so I have a question:

 

Is it normal for me to get instakilled by the Cyberdemon's rocket in the very first second upon spawning?

[leodoom85]

2 minutes ago, Voros said:

I never played Cat And Mouse before, unfortunately, so I have a question:

 

Is it normal for me to get instakilled by the Cyberdemon's rocket in the very first second upon spawning?

Nope, just move as quickly as you can. The cyberdemon is in front of you...maybe it's just bad luck :D

Edited April 5, 2017 by leodoom85

[Voros]

Yes. I'm just asking if it's intentional.

[leodoom85]

1 minute ago, Voros said:

Yes. I'm just asking if it's intentional.

Oh. Yes, that's the original placement for that map. ALL versions has the cyberdemon placed in that position

Edited April 5, 2017 by leodoom85

[DoomKnight1984]

37 minutes ago, Voros said:

I never played Cat And Mouse before, unfortunately, so I have a question:

 

Is it normal for me to get instakilled by the Cyberdemon's rocket in the very first second upon spawning?

 

I think that also happened to me when I was playing Doom 64 EX, if I remember correctly.

[leodoom85]

All bonus maps, Cat and Mouse, Playground and Hardcore are mean maps

[Voros]

Playground is easy enough to handle.

Hardcore is a bitch, but not impossible.

Cat And Mouse is something else entirely.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Voros