Should I edit Sunder and make a new unofficial bugfix version

[Killer5]

Hello.

Thursday during JohnSuitepee's Holy Hell stream we sparked up a discussion about possibly fixing some of the odd stuff in Sunder and release it because insane_gazebo has been away for many years (at least I think so anyways).

Obviously this is weird because what if insane_gazebo comes back because it would mean messing with another mapper's wad (wish insane_gazebo would come back D:).

I cant decide if I would truly want to fix these things because they make for some interesting demos.

Anyways some of the stuff I was thinking about would be:
- Removing the death exit pit in su14
- Preventing player from hitting the switch early in the small room just prior to bfg area in su14.
- Fixing all of the lines in su08 so the player cant exploit fights (especially the final fight)
- Fixing the PE spawns in su13 so there isnt a chance of PEs getting stuck in closets
- Fixing the stuck cyb during final fight of su08
- Preventing player from abusing tele traps in map09 (I guess it is cool being able to pacifist it by simply skipping the initial group of monsters?)
- Preventing player from hitting switches through bars in su10
- Reworking teleporters in su10 to make monsters spawn quicker and more consistent
- Removing deaf imps in su10
- Reworking the switches in su05 so the player can no longer skip switch sequences
- Preventing rocket cheese against vile island in su05

Anyways just curious what people think. I am on the fence personally.

[Memfis]

sunder.txt said:

Authors MAY use this level as a base to build additional levels. Seriously, go have some fun! It's not like I'm getting paid for this.

[Grain of Salt]

All wads have quirks like that, though. At this point, what you'd gain from "fixing" those things doesn't come close to justifying the cost of breaking demos etc. You'd just be creating a fork of Sunder that fewer people would play and record demos for, and which would mostly just confuse people.

[Doomkid]

As long as you make the filename significantly different somehow and distribute it with a .txt explaining what it is, I don't see an issue since the author expressly allows you to do so.

[Firedust]

Dang, and here I thought insane_gazebo was going to finish this thing. Would've been best mapset ever.

[Suitepee]

Killer5 said:

- Preventing rocket cheese against vile island in su05

*notes down strategy for my eventual Sunder playthrough*

[rehelekretep]

leave it how it is for now.

if you want to make a 'Sunder Deluxe Edition' then go ahead, but make sure the wad is named and distributed to make it clear that its a different release entirely.

i too am annoyed as i thought this was an announcement the IG had made contact with someone from DW and that he was coming back :'(

[4shockblast]

Yeah, the thread name is a bit misleading haha, but making something like this could be good. The things that actually seem worth fixing for this would be the stuck/hard-to-reach monsters, map 14 death pit, and slow/bad teleporters. I think switches being possible to hit early is just part of IG's apparent unawareness of or disregard towards tricks within the Doom engine and wouldn't make sense to change without fixing all of the other tricks such as glides and RJs. They would also be difficult to fix in some places without substantially changing the map, e.g. su05. Abusing the final fight on su08 might be worthwhile to change, though, as it's a particularly silly oversight. Map 09 would be easy enough to fix with a forced shot at the start, but I also think it's kind of amusing that a Sunder map can be done stroller.

[Veinen]

Fixing some cosmetic issues half a decade after the wads initial release sounds completely pointless to me. It's not like these things have hindered demo recording activity for the wad in any way either considering there's 27 hours' worth of demos in the DSDA for Sunder.

[Linguica]

rehelekretep said:

i too am annoyed as i thought this was an announcement the IG had made contact with someone from DW and that he was coming back :'(

Same. Thread title changed.

[dew]

Grain of Salt said:

All wads have quirks like that, though. At this point, what you'd gain from "fixing" those things doesn't come close to justifying the cost of breaking demos etc. You'd just be creating a fork of Sunder that fewer people would play and record demos for, and which would mostly just confuse people.

QFT. Re-releasing the wad in its entirety would create a ton of confusion. There's no new content, just a short list of fixes, which in my eyes doesn't justify dumping the demo history. If you really want to go forward with this, perhaps a better way would be to create a bugfix file that's run on top of Sunder and contains just the treated map lumps, no resources. That way everything is kept intact within Sunder itself and the fixes are optional.

Also beware of feature creep, I've seen similar ideas turn sour as more stuff gets attached to the list and suddenly it's a full-blown reimagining, you're forcing the mirrored lost soul sprite on everyone and half the community denounces your name. :)

[Killer5]

Ok. Was curious what everyone thought. So I'll just leave it be for now =).

[VGA]

If there is a fixed version I will play that one instead of the original.

[dew]

VGA said:

If there is a fixed version I will play that one instead of the original.

That's nice and everything, but that version would be incompatible with the demos recorded so far - just to fix exploits abused by people recording demos. With so many years gone by, this can do more harm than good. The compromise I described alleviates the problem partially, because you need that extra file with the updated maps loaded after "base" Sunder to play the fixed version.

[kb1]

Doomkid said:

As long as you make the filename significantly different somehow and distribute it with a .txt explaining what it is, I don't see an issue since the author expressly allows you to do so.

Seconding this recommendation. I'd love to play a "fixed" version, if:
. As already stated, you rename it sufficiently, as to not cause confusion about demos
. Limit your changes to bug fixes
. Don't create more bugs :)

For example, fixing stuck monsters makes sense, but "removing monsters, cause a certain area seems to difficult" would not qualify as a bug fix, IMHO.

It is an awesome mapset as is. It would not feel official if areas or monsters were added/removed, I think.

[dew]

So let me get this straight. You're proposing a significant project name change for the sake of several minor, non-critical bugfixes on a few maps, while keeping everything else as faithful as possible, including not changing maps 01-04, 06-07 and 12 at all. And everything's going to be explained in the txt and there will be no confusion on the mp servers or when recording demos.

Wow.

[SArais]

Here's to insane_gazebo re-appearing this year.

[baja blast rd.]

I don't 100% agree that maps shouldn't be changed outside of minor bugfixes. The prevailing tastes have changed significantly over the past few years, and Sunder could use a touch-up or two in many places -- nothing huge, just slight changes -- to be more suitable for the times. For example, map06 isn't really compatible with Brutal Doom at all, due to the slaughterfest gameplay all over the place. I'd propose a removal of slaughterfest gameplay bugfix -- it would still be a great wad without it -- so that it's playable with modern settings.

[Grain of Salt]

I'd be completely in favour of a bugfix to make all the maps incompatible with brutal doom. That'd be neat.

[Xaser]

While we're at it, could we patch Sunder so that it's compatible with Sunder?

[Death Egg]

Current version doesn't load in Chocolate Doom, could you fix that in the bugfixed version

[Voros]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to release an external patch for Sunder rather editing Sunder itself?

[Outrageous Videos]

I personally think the glitches are fun and make speedrunning more enjoyable
Sunder should be kept as is until insane gazebo comes back (if he ever does)

[SArais]

Could always try to continue the legacy

[kb1]

dew said:

So let me get this straight. You're proposing a significant project name change for the sake of several minor, non-critical bugfixes on a few maps, while keeping everything else as faithful as possible, including not changing maps 01-04, 06-07 and 12 at all. And everything's going to be explained in the txt and there will be no confusion on the mp servers or when recording demos.

Wow.

You get confused easily, don't you? Wow.

rdwpa said:

I don't 100% agree that maps shouldn't be changed outside of minor bugfixes. The prevailing tastes have changed significantly over the past few years, and Sunder could use a touch-up or two in many places -- nothing huge, just slight changes -- to be more suitable for the times. For example, map06 isn't really compatible with Brutal Doom at all, due to the slaughterfest gameplay all over the place. I'd propose a removal of slaughterfest gameplay bugfix -- it would still be a great wad without it -- so that it's playable with modern settings.

There's nothing wrong with that approach, but it's no longer a "Bug-fixed Sunder", it's something else. The OP described a bugfix version, which suggests fixing bugs only.

I'm sure people have varying philosophies in regard to the releasing of modified versions of popular maps by other authors that have been away from the community for an extended period of time. I was hoping to avoid that discussion, and simply provide the OP an opinionated answer to his question.

[dew]

I care about the game, not just the code. You're just handing out technocratic advice that would actually backfire on the community in several aspects. Such solution should be avoided.

[kb1]

dew said:

I care about the game, not just the code. You're just handing out technocratic advice that would actually backfire on the community in several aspects. Such solution should be avoided.

Are you replying to me? Did you "butt-post" in the wrong thread, maybe?

[Marcaek]

How to concern troll new life into dead threads