Why do people still map in Boom format?

[kb1]

9 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

That's stuff for later. I'd really like to hear some word from entryway about the whole thing. I don't mind putting a bit of work into PrBoom but to be honest, this isn't a project I'd want to actively maintain, as too much of the code seems to scream 'don't touch me or demos stop working'.

 

Not so much the play code but the global game management, which is still all in the same dismal state as in the original game with endless checks for game mode (i.e. IWAD) or special handling for all kinds of stuff hard coded and what not. All clearly necessary for demo sync but it makes it a rather unpleasant code base to work with.

Maybe wait to see what I can come up with. I'm starting to pick up momentum on my Doom work, after a massive bout of procrastination. As far as global game management goes, a lot of the sync-specific checks double as game options, whereas with some clever setup code, can be combined into a single comparison at runtime. In places where large functions get drastically changed based on game emulation mode, some function swapping can keep the core game logic clean, and avoid the per-frame/per-call comparison altogether, relegating that logic to a single (ugly) game setup module. That's the plan, anyway. With the right structuring, and plenty of useful commenting, there's no reason the code cannot have a nice clean flow to it. Entryway may or may not want to update his code base, but that's what forking is all about :) I'll let you know when I'm at a place where I need a hand.

 

@traversd: I'd be very interested to hear about your ideas for linedef/sector additions. I am currently pegged to create a upgrade to the current Boom standard - a Boom+ type upgrade. But, it's going to take me some time to do, though, and, if someone else beats me to it, that would be a good thing for the community. My current workload has me extremely overwhelmed, but I will try slowly. To do this standard right requires a lot fo research into the current ports, to avoid stepping on things like linedef numbers, etc.

 

Any such additions should be generic enough, yet powerful enough to support a wide variety of uses, if possible. There is another thread on DW that discusses this very topic; I cannot remember its name at the moment. But there were some good suggestions for useful code pointers.

 

If done carefully, there can be many phases of upgrade. I would suggest that the first upgrade be confined to simple additions that are easily supported by all enhanced ports. Then, we can see how well the standard is adopted. This is an exciting possibility! As Graf said, its been 19 years! It's time to enjoy some additions to the standard. Who knows? One day, all ports may speak the same language! There will always be some things that only some ports can do, and that's not a bad thing. What we're trying to do here is raise the ratio of maps and features that all ports can understand.

[Da Werecat]

I know I'm not traversd, but I'm finding Boom floor and ceiling brightness transfers somewhat insufficient. A way to transfer wall brightness would be nice, and thing brightness also wouldn't hurt.

 

There are also some things that work in a weird way right now. For some reason, MBF made it so that the ceiling brightness transfer also affects things. I'd understand if it was the floor one, but no. Moreso, PrBoom+ had additional inconsistencies in this regard last time I checked, like maybe affecting things, but not the player weapon, or something like that, I don't remember the specifics.

[Graf Zahl]

 

 

45 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

I know I'm not traversd, but I'm finding Boom floor and ceiling brightness transfers somewhat insufficient. A way to transfer wall brightness would be nice, and thing brightness also wouldn't hurt.

 

Like the one I added for ZDoom 10 years ago or so?

 

[Jon]

9 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

I know I'm not traversd, but I'm finding Boom floor and ceiling brightness transfers somewhat insufficient. A way to transfer wall brightness would be nice, and thing brightness also wouldn't hurt.

 

There are also some things that work in a weird way right now. For some reason, MBF made it so that the ceiling brightness transfer also affects things. I'd understand if it was the floor one, but no. Moreso, PrBoom+ had additional inconsistencies in this regard last time I checked, like maybe affecting things, but not the player weapon, or something like that, I don't remember the specifics.

 

The whole 242 effect is quite unintuitive, come to think of it. IMHO it would have made much more sense to have the real sectors floor and ceiling heights/flats to reflect the rendered real floor/ceiling heights/flats, and have the control sector define the "new" stuff, rather than conflating the two. I wonder if there was some kind of "graceful degredation" attempt (possibly abandoned) since a consequence of the way it works is that things like deep water are substituted with solid water at the same height and texture if you try playing it in vanilla.

 

This would also massively reduce the number of control sectors you need for some effects. Consider a complex area that is partially flooded: you need a control sector for every unique floor/ceil height floor/ceil texture and light level. With what I suggest above, you'd have one control sector that defined the water properties, and tag it into all the normal sectors.

A reworked 242 effect, possibly a suite of them (floor only, ceil only, light only, combinations of them, or perhaps combos should be achieved with multiple line/tags) would be well worth figuring out.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Jon

[Graf Zahl]

ZDoom already contains a 'fixed' version of it - it also leaves out the often unwanted  'upper' part of the 3-area setup and yes it is definitely a lot easier to use than the original.

 

[Da Werecat]

12 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Like the one I added for ZDoom 10 years ago or so?

I don't know, I haven't used it.

[Angry Saint]

All this discussion about Boom and Zdoom makes me want to map for some old/obscure/neglected port like Legacy or RORDoom or EDGE.

[BigDickBzzrak]

^

Don't... trust me.

Stick to Boom/ZDoom/vanilla, you'll sleep better.

Edited April 21, 2017 by bzzrak

[Gez]

Well RORDoom is definitely a waste of time, that thing is dead and buried and modern editors don't make it easy to use its sole distinguishing feature. Legacy or EDGE, why not; they're still developed and you could find some people playing it. (Plus most Legacy maps can sorta work in GZDoom.)

[Graf Zahl]

32 minutes ago, Gez said:

Well RORDoom is definitely a waste of time

 

Mostly because the source was never released so no other port could ever analyze what it actually did. :(

 

[Da Werecat]

OTOH, CDoom is open-source...

[Angry Saint]

19 minutes ago, Da Werecat said:

CDoom

From doomwiki:

 

Features in v2.x

"True 3D" gameplay, including 3D floors

Slopes

Supports jumping, flying, swimming, and crouching

Freelook

Chasecam

Extra cheat commands

Generation of missing blockmaps

Uncapped framerate

 

It seems you can do nice things... can gzdoombuilder support it?

[Da Werecat]

Seriously though, it's a very unpolished engine, based on my observations.

[axdoomer]

CDoom is less usable than vanilla Doom. The code source is available, but the author used manual obfuscation so people can't read it. 

 

I think it's the only source port which is a regression from vanilla Doom. Those new features don't even work without bugs. 

 

Also, the author is some kind of weirdo. 

[Angry Saint]

Some other nice port I could use for some... how to say... "retromapping"?

[Death Egg]

3 hours ago, Angry Saint said:

All this discussion about Boom and Zdoom makes me want to map for some old/obscure/neglected port like Legacy or RORDoom or EDGE.

Would love to see a small resurgance of Legacy maps come about some day. Wonder if there's any features from Legacy or 3DGE that wouldn't seem out of place in prBoom+? I recall 3DGE having wall linedefs for scrolling textures up, down, and diagonally rather than just left or right.

[Graf Zahl]

3 minutes ago, Death Egg said:

I recall 3DGE having wall linedefs for scrolling textures up, down, and diagonally rather than just left or right.

Boom got that, too, it has one special 'scroll textures using offsets. Granted, it is a bit limited because it hijacks the offset field, but it's there.

But a generalized scroller type might not be such a bad idea - or scroll by amount of tag value.

 

Regarding Legacy, the only line types that may be repurposed would be the ones for fixed translucency levels, aside from those everything is either FraggleScript or 3D floors. But thanks to Eternity reusing all the same values for different stuff, any new additions would have to be placed in the above 500 range to avoid clashes.

 

 

[esselfortium]

Is CDoom's author the guy who kept registering new Doomworld accounts and posting explicit gore photos and IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER HOLY SON I CURSE DOOMWORLD MODERATOR FUCKERS etc etc insanity for years on end after one of his idgames uploads got rejected on a technicality? Or am I thinking of someone else?

[axdoomer]

That's sure him. He gives credits to Jesus Christ for his port and in his text files. 

 

He has a few Youtube videos where it's hard to see because he's filming his screen. Here he shows off his port with what seems to be destroyable geometry, which is interesting. ZDoom can't do this?

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by axdoomer

[Graf Zahl]

That entire effect is just instantly moving sector floors, so sure, any port with scripting can do it. Of course it's a lot of work to set up a level to get it to work because there is no automation - not even in that port, which btw, glitched a lot in the video...

 

 

[Jon]

I did something like that in Cursed Hangar a few months ago. A pain in the ass indeed.

[Da Werecat]

I found mildly amusing that he censored message_dontfuckwithme into message_dontdamnme in the source code.

[Danfun64]

IMO, if there is to be a new standard, it seems like the best choice would be whatever the lowest common denominator is between Eternity, Odamex, and Vavoom (and maybe 3dge if it adds ACS support for Doom). Shame this subset isn't clearly defined, because it seems like the closest thing to a Boom+ in existance.

[Graf Zahl]

Why Vavoom? That port is dead. But like you said, that subset is not clearly defined. It's also not necessarily what Boom+ should aim for.

What I believe is that it should pick features from existing ports that can easily be implemented and thus have a good chance of getting adopted by all relevant ports.

 

Some easier to use scroll linedefs are definitely on that list, for example, and that's present in at least those ports which support Hexen map format.

 

[Danfun64]

IDK why Vavoom. It was the first thing that came to mind with advanced features that wasn't 3dge or directly based off any version of ZDoom.

The reason I picked that subset was because pretty much anything compatible with Odamex (with the exception of CTF stuff some of the time) can play on most modern ZDoom based ports. Also, there are several wads that aim for either ZDoom 1.22/23 or ZDaemon compatibility as a baseline. Since ZDoom 1.22/1.23 mapping has been pretty stable for years, and since Eternity is probably very close to at the very least that level of compatibility, it seems like a decent baseline...

 

but like you said, it might not be the best baseline for a new standard...

[Xaser]

3 hours ago, Angry Saint said:

All this discussion about Boom and Zdoom makes me want to map for some old/obscure/neglected port like Legacy or RORDoom or EDGE.

Eternity could always use some love.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Xaser

[Angry Saint]

It seems to be still maintained: not enough retro.

 

But actually I already was interested in mapping for it.

[Lavender Moon]

You could map for a console version of Doom.

[SOSU]

We should all start mapping in "Doom SNES Format"

Edited April 21, 2017 by SOSU

[Doomkid]

8 hours ago, Angry Saint said:

All this discussion about Boom and Zdoom makes me want to map for some old/obscure/neglected port like Legacy or RORDoom or EDGE.

Legacy mapping is actually super easy, in terms of 3D floors and deep water and whatnot. Legacy maps run in GZDoom and Zandronum too, so you'd actually have a decent audience. If I ever wanted to make a map with 3D floors that's honestly the format I'd use.