Doom 1 or 2?

[Maes]

Modern videogames can only be called that in a very weak sense -for me, the average modern shooter/rpg etc. ranks just above a 90s FMV "game" in terms of well, you know, feeling like a videogame. Uncomparable with arcade games where you had to not let go of the controller for 1-2 hours straight to beat the game.

[bimlanders]

Who gets lost in Doom 2? Seriously... I have been lost in countless pwad maps but not in the original iwads. I may get confused when trying to find 100% secrets, but that's about it.

[Pirx]

V8 Killer said:

LMAO Swiss_Cheeseman!!!

+1 for the simplest explanation.

A picture is definitely worth 1,000 (sometimes very rude) words.

i've seen this picture before and i can agree with that.

now, a review from 2010 stating that a game made in 1994 looks antiquated was so totally unexpected :p

[darkreaver]

The best times I have had with any computer game was when I and a couple of friends played TNT Evilution in co-op for the first time. We spent fucking hours running around in the maps figuring out where to go. Great times! (seriously)

[sym]

i would love to see this reviewer try to beat E4M6 on UV

the comedy that would arise from seeing that.. would be near unmatchable

[Graf Zahl]

... and here we ask ourselves why modern games are so dull and boring. No wonder when the opinion makers are clueless morons...

[Jodwin]

That review reminds me of a Cynical Brit video on Steel Storm, where in the end of a level he kept running around trying to find an exit. He spent a long time consulting the game's map which clearly showed the location of the exit with a big red marker...if only he had taken five seconds to read the map icon legend to really know what that red marker was, instead of running around without a clue and then quitting because he couldn't find where to go.

Yeah, people are morons.

[Pirx]

darkreaver said:

The best times I have had with any computer game was when I and a couple of friends played TNT Evilution in co-op for the first time. We spent fucking hours running around in the maps figuring out where to go. Great times! (seriously)

yep, tnt map 20 and 21 in co-op. par time: time sucks! i had never seen that exit message before.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

sym said:

i would love to see this reviewer try to beat E4M6 on UV

the comedy that would arise from seeing that.. would be near unmatchable

Except by this reviewer trying to beat Hexen. (or better still, any pwads made for it)

[Koko Ricky]

Genres such as vehicular combat, platforming, RPG, action/adventure, survival horror, sandbox games like GTA, etc., tend to give players a certain degree of freedom in that, while ultimately linear, there are multiple pathways that can be taken. Why is it that contemporary first person shooters so rarely have this option?

[Csonicgo]

What an arselord.


Luckily, a lot of people who submitted user reviews blasted the initial reviewer, which is a lot like comments. They show no mercy.

[Porsche Monty]

I'm very comfortable with clear boundaries and linearity, not sure if I'd enjoy a game lacking on that department.

I think what does it for me is being able to tell the right path by merely observing the surrounding architecture.

[Sigvatr]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution has a little bit of Wolfenstein 3d/Doom style secret hunting, ie: walls that you can punch down with your cyborg arms.

[Vordakk]

Captain Red said:

There are people who post on these very forums and have done so for YEARS who admit that they've never actually finished Doom II without no clipping. You know why? Because the maps become cluster fucks of adventure game logic to get to the end of. Remember "The Living End (map29)"? you actually had to find a hidden door to finish that god damn map.

I'm generally against using cheats to beat a video game, and I never cheated to beat any commercial DOOM levels. I've beaten them all numerous times, and honestly, none of them were that tough. The hardest parts were in Plutonia, but that was due to tough enemy placement, not level design. At NO POINT did the game even approach "adventure game logic". Sorry, this isn't Maniac Mansion. I played each game when it came out in the early-to-mid 90's, on a 486/33 with 8 megs RAM using only a keyboard. Anyone with even a passing sense of direction or spatial relationships can navigate through pretty much any commercial DOOM level, and figuring out the "puzzles" was as easy as looking for appropriate clues. Those levels were playtested thoroughly to ensure that they weren't too confusing.

If it was really that tough for you to beat DOOM II, you might invest in a game like Space Invaders, where you won't get lost.

Also, even if someone here did admit to not being able to beat the levels without clipping, there's no logic to suggest that it was due to "cluster fuck" maps. Maybe they got impatient or just cheat in general?

While I don't think Doom would be improved with CoD like linear levels, It could learn a few things from modern video game design.

That sentence is so utterly ignorant that it looks almost purposefully crafted to incite responses. Modern video game design LEARNED FROM DOOM, not the other way around. Take a jaunt to the wikipedia page for DOOM and note how many organizations have touted DOOM as the most influential game ever, not just for the FPS genre, but PERIOD. Yeah, it could learn a few things though, like how to be mindless, cut-scene riddled garbage that no one in their right mind would want to play through once, let alone twice. The point of a game, at least for me, is to challenge the mind with a problem, then reward the player for solving that problem, whatever it may be. Nowadays games are mostly interactive movies where you run forward, click the mouse a few times and wait for the next cutscene. Why not just make a machinima film and be done with it?

[Ralphis]

Vordakk said:

That sentence is so utterly ignorant that it looks almost purposefully crafted to incite responses. Modern video game design LEARNED FROM DOOM, not the other way around. Take a jaunt to the wikipedia page for DOOM and note how many organizations have touted DOOM as the most influential game ever, not just for the FPS genre, but PERIOD. Yeah, it could learn a few things though, like how to be mindless, cut-scene riddled garbage that no one in their right mind would want to play through once, let alone twice. The point of a game, at least for me, is to challenge the mind with a problem, then reward the player for solving that problem, whatever it may be. Nowadays games are mostly interactive movies where you run forward, click the mouse a few times and wait for the next cutscene. Why not just make a machinima film and be done with it?

You gotta calm down man. First off, people obviously love those "mindless, cut-scene riddled garbage" games. Have you looked at their sales? Secondly, if you're looking for a game to challenge you with problems, Doom is hardly some deep mind bender compared to modern games. As a matter of fact, part of Doom's charm comes from its juvenile simplicity.

People obviously love these new games and people still regard Doom as one of the greatest of all time. It is ok to do both.

EDIT: I often theorize that people here just choose to hate new games because THEY'RE NEW SO THEY SUCK, just as those who confine themselves to one MUSICAL GENRE do. Y'all are chumps!

[Vordakk]

Ralphis said:

I often theorize that people here just choose to hate new games because THEY'RE NEW SO THEY SUCK, just as those who confine themselves to one MUSICAL GENRE do. Y'all are chumps!

You'll notice that I referred to "most games", not "all games". I'm a huge fan of Deus Ex series, the Thief series, and the Bioshock series(which stems from System Shock 1 and 2, sooooo good!). I enjoyed the new Wolfenstein game from 2009. I liked Far Cry 1 and 2, and Crysis 1 and 2 as well. Half-Life 1 and 2, Et cetera, et cetera.

New games aren't intrinsically bad, obviously, and you're correct that mindless destruction and simplicity can be fun. But ragging on DOOM for having a few puzzles, and for reasons that are grounded in illogical reasoning and ignorance merit a response.

And no dad, I don't have to calm down.

[Xeros612]

DoomUK said:

asserts modern shooters have so much more to offer in the level design department.

If his point had been changed from that to "modern shooters have the potential to offer more in level design" then he'd have a valid point. Take something like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (I know, I know, not a pure shooter, blah blah blah) or much of Crysis and his point could be valid. Given the usual "follow this line, scripted events", though... clearly not.

The Ultimate DooMer said:

The strange thing is, there's plenty of linearity in Doom 2's maps..but not as much as today's shooters ofc. I wonder if he's not even used to stuff like backtracking to locked/remote doors etc. and having optional areas to explore. (let alone full non-linearity such as map 21)

There's plenty of linearity in all Doom maps, it's just more "branching linearity" than "single line".

[hex11]

Modern games would be better with elevator music.

[Captain Red]

Vordakk said:

I'm generally against using cheats to beat a video game, and I never cheated to beat any commercial DOOM levels. I've beaten them all numerous times, and honestly, none of them were that tough. The hardest parts were in Plutonia, but that was due to tough enemy placement, not level design. At NO POINT did the game even approach "adventure game logic". Sorry, this isn't Maniac Mansion. I played each game when it came out in the early-to-mid 90's, on a 486/33 with 8 megs RAM using only a keyboard. Anyone with even a passing sense of direction or spatial relationships can navigate through pretty much any commercial DOOM level, and figuring out the "puzzles" was as easy as looking for appropriate clues. Those levels were playtested thoroughly to ensure that they weren't too confusing.

If it was really that tough for you to beat DOOM II, you might invest in a game like Space Invaders, where you won't get lost.

Also, even if someone here did admit to not being able to beat the levels without clipping, there's no logic to suggest that it was due to "cluster fuck" maps. Maybe they got impatient or just cheat in general?

I guess I wasn't clear enough before:

***HOW GOOD YOU ARE AT SOLVING PUZZLES IN OLD VIDEO GAMES DOES NOT MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT MORE VALID***

Just becasue it's driving me a bit nuts: I actually didn't get stuck in Doom II either! The map29 example I cited was something I observed other people other people complain about and thanks to my ability to look at things objectively, I decided that; yes, I could see how that's a problem. I did get stuck in Plutonia though, but please refer to the sentence written in all caps to explain the relevance this has to the current discussion.

I'll say this one more time in the hope it'll stick; I like doom lots. I've played it and finished it more times then I'm prepared to say. I think that it was a triumph of tech and design, but if there is one thing about this nearly 17 year old game that is showing it's age, it's the level design. Despite what you might think, that does not mean I want it to be more liner, or to have cut scenes or NPCs or gray hall ways or whatever you people think 'modern level design' means, it more about consistency of tone, pacing and maybe even a little bit of narrative, and using things game designers hadn't mastered or weren't aware of back in the late 80's and 90's. Could you at least consider the possibility that maybe a whole bunch of professional game designers might find a way to make your favorite video game even better if they had another crack at it?

I mean, Doom's levels are a bit schizophrenic and kind of all over the place quality wise. Hell, there's a reasonable explanations for it being that way: In the case of the first Doom, it was due a hectic development (read up on the doom bible, and 'The Masters of Doom' to get some insight). For doom 2 it had to do with most of it being designed for mulitiplayer, in both cases there where some conflicting design goals, and it had a pretty obvious effect on the map design. It was also among the games pioneering action from a first person perspective. Saying that the levels can be confusing at times is a pretty valid observation. Now, you can like doom's approach to puzzles and map layouts but holding them up as some kind of beyond reproach paragon of video game goodness is a little deluded.

Vordakk said:

That sentence is so utterly ignorant that it looks almost purposefully crafted to incite responses. Modern video game design LEARNED FROM DOOM, not the other way around. Take a jaunt to the wikipedia page for DOOM and note how many organizations have touted DOOM as the most influential game ever, not just for the FPS genre, but PERIOD. Yeah, it could learn a few things though, like how to be mindless, cut-scene riddled garbage that no one in their right mind would want to play through once, let alone twice. The point of a game, at least for me, is to challenge the mind with a problem, then reward the player for solving that problem, whatever it may be. Nowadays games are mostly interactive movies where you run forward, click the mouse a few times and wait for the next cutscene. Why not just make a machinima film and be done with it?

OK, you either wrote this as a response to something someone else on some other forum and accidentally pasted here or you are projecting on to me like a psychopath. You want to re-read my sentence and have another crack at a response here buddy? I am honestly prepared to pretend you didn't post this in an effort to salvage an adult discussion here.

[Vordakk]

Captain Red said:

In the case of the first Doom, it was due a hectic development

Yeah, and I'm sure that no modern games ever have hectic development schedules.

Captain Red said:

You want to re-read my sentence and have another crack at a response here buddy? I am honestly prepared to pretend you didn't post this in an effort to salvage an adult discussion here.

No, I don't need to re-read your sentence. It's posted for all to see. Just in case you missed it though, it's "While I don't think Doom would be improved with CoD like linear levels, It could learn a few things from modern video game design."

There is no "adult" discussion here. It's you saying DOOM needs to learn from modern games, as though somehow in your mind DOOM as it currently stands is annoying and unplayable without the infinite wisdom of modern level design, and I must have been hallucinating when I thought I had any fun at all playing it. And then it's me putting you in your place. You're welcome.

[Mithran Denizen]

Vordakk said:

It's you saying DOOM needs to learn from modern games, as though somehow in your mind DOOM as it currently stands is annoying and unplayable without the infinite wisdom of modern level design, and I must have been hallucinating when I thought I had any fun at all playing it.

Stop beating the strawmen to death already, he said nothing of the sort. Where the hell are you getting all this delusional bullshit?

And then it's me putting you in your place. You're welcome.

Acting like a dick on top of it all doesn't make your ranting any more coherent, either. Calm down and quit it with the veiled insults.

[ReFracture]

It's simple, really.

It is far easier to call a challenge bad game design than it is to adapt and learn how to conquer the challenge.

A good sense of navigation in my opinion is a skill. Those of us who have that down would call the level design enjoyable.

To everybody else? Bad game design.

Now that isn't to say you can't go overboard with mazes and shit. Go play Chasm: The Rift. That shit is just plain confusing and everything looks the fucking same.

[Vordakk]

Mithran Denizen said:

Stop beating the strawmen to death already, he said nothing of the sort. Where the hell are you getting all this delusional bullshit?

Oh yeah...you're absolutely right. He never said that DOOM maps "become cluster fucks of adventure game logic" or that DOOM "could learn a few things from modern video game design." I was deluded when I wrote what I did. Please forgive me, but I need to return to my game of Modern Warfare 2...I'm in the single-player campaign and I still have a few cutscenes I need to trigger.

It's also fairly rich that you speak of supposed "veiled insults" and then call me a dick outright. Sticks and stones, I guess.

[Captain Red]

Vordakk said:

Yeah, and I'm sure that no modern games ever have hectic development schedules.

Well boy do I ever feel dumb for saying that modern games never have hectic development schedules.

Vordakk said:

No, I don't need to re-read your sentence. It's posted for all to see. Just in case you missed it though, it's "While I don't think Doom would be improved with CoD like linear levels, It could learn a few things from modern video game design."

There is no "adult" discussion here. It's you saying DOOM needs to learn from modern games, as though somehow in your mind DOOM as it currently stands is annoying and unplayable without the infinite wisdom of modern level design, and I must have been hallucinating when I thought I had any fun at all playing it. And then it's me putting you in your place. You're welcome.

I think I'm done talking to you. I will leave the above quotation here though with a reminder that this is a response to "While I don't think Doom would be improved with CoD like linear levels, It could learn a few things from modern video game design." those are the words I said, and that is how Vordakk has chosen to respond.

[hex11]

What modern game design elements would improve Doom exactly? People like this reviewer say vague things and don't really give any details. What's going on here? Are they just full of shit? When someone has a valid argument they're not afraid to go into minute details.

[DeathevokatioN]

hex11 said:

What modern game design elements would improve Doom exactly?

None. There really is nothing that modern games have to offer that would add any value to Doom in my eyes.

[Maes]

Ralphis said:

EDIT: I often theorize that people here just choose to hate new games because THEY'RE NEW SO THEY SUCK, just as those who confine themselves to one MUSICAL GENRE do. Y'all are chumps!

Probably it's just the good old Nostalgia Filter kicking in.

That being said, the video game market is saturated, and the opportunities for ground-breaking innovation aren't the the same as 10, 20 or 30 years ago, and there IS an objective tendency to just make more of the same (ok, you may get that same impression by checking out e.g. all Mega Drive games from 1989-1990, but at least you didn't see the same fucking licensed game engine everywhere).

It's not like anyone is going to do the equivalent of introducing a fully texture-mapped 3D game to a crowd used only to 2D platformers, or 3D acceleration to a crowd used to software renderers, or a game that required a 10x increase in CPU power to be playable (case in point, Pentium 200 and Windows 95-class games, introduced when a 486 DX/66 (MPC-2) was still popular).

Tablets? Touch screens? Wii controllers? Gimme a break, those are gimmicks that stay in niches.

[Megamur]

hex11 said:

What modern game design elements would improve Doom exactly? People like this reviewer say vague things and don't really give any details. What's going on here? Are they just full of shit? When someone has a valid argument they're not afraid to go into minute details.

Hear, hear.

[Captain Red]

hex11 said:

What modern game design elements would improve Doom exactly? People like this reviewer say vague things and don't really give any details. What's going on here? Are they just full of shit? When someone has a valid argument they're not afraid to go into minute details.

Most people don't consider the ideas that doom's maps aren't perfect and some newer games do some things better then doom to be particularly controversial. The Burden of Proof isn't on the reviewer to prove that those statements are right, it's on you, as a fan of doom to prove them wrong, otherwise every review becomes a thesis on game design.

However, if you want an example of a modern game design element would improve Doom: Better use of narrative!
I don't mean a story, or babbling NPCs or audio dairies, but things like having the maps lead into each other rather then just stop and start or having a map that's called "power plant" have bits that maybe resemble a power plant, or maybe give the impression that the maps are more then just a set of rooms with monsters and traps.

Portal, for instance, could have easily just been a bunch of rooms with traps, gun turrets and puzzles to solve, and what's more, if it was just that it probably would have been a good game. But then valve decided to add a passive aggressive mad computer babbling in your ear, a few empty offices and some graffiti writing on the wall written by someone with a lose grasp on reality, and (annoying catch phrases aside) the game becomes a classic.

Doom wouldn't even need to go that far, just take the design philosophy they had for the first episode a little bit further, and use it consistently throughout the whole game. Remember how the first episode ended? The teleport into the dark room where you 'died'? That's narrative, and I'd say doom could do it better.

[Vordakk]

Captain Red said:

The Burden of Proof isn't on the reviewer to prove that those statements are right, it's on you, as a fan of doom to prove them wrong, otherwise every review becomes a thesis on game design.

If we don't hold reviewers accountable for their statements, then what good are they? The purpose of a game reviewer is to give us an idea of whether or not we'd want to invest time and money on a game, so if they can't be trusted to get the facts straight then they need to find a new job.

Captain Red said:

However, if you want an example of a modern game design element would improve Doom: Better use of narrative!

Dunno man, I kind liked DOOM the way it was. Probably because I have an imagination. I made up my own story for why rooms and structures looked the way they did. Kinda like reading a book. You are free to decide how the people look and how their voices sound, and to a smaller extent the way their surroundings look.

Captain Red said:

Portal, for instance...then valve decided to add a passive aggressive mad computer babbling in your ear, a few empty offices and some graffiti writing on the wall written by someone with a lose grasp on reality, and (annoying catch phrases aside) the game becomes a classic.

Pretty sure DOOM became a classic without any of that stuff. And none of that was why Portal became a classic. It was good because of an ingenious idea and the ability of the level designers to use that idea over and over again in creative ways, slowly building on that idea, making the puzzles gradually harder as the player went on. If you seriously think graffiti on walls and a babbling computer make a good game, you're not doing your argument concerning DOOM any favors.