Doom 1 or 2?

[slugger]

26 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

If the maps were the way everyone wanted them to be the game would be worse and less unique from a level design perspective 

 

I wanted maps that look like real-life cities, and now I have to walk outside for that! SUCH a disappointment!!

[Doomkid]

53 minutes ago, Nihlith said:

What do you mean?

Everyone seems to have wanted cleaner yet more clinical mapping.. In my opinion there will never be another Doom 2 largely because it wasn’t like that. It was a strange digital hell not much like anything imagined prior, and that was a crucial part of its identity. Its more fun than any other game I’ve played before or since, even 20something years later!

 

Doom 1’s maps are fine and blew me away back then as well, but they wore thinner faster over the years. I get bored some time around Inferno and E4 only has a brief spike of real entertainment. Conversely I can do a full Doom 2 playthrough in one sitting at any moment and love it..

[Egg Boy]

44 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

It's fine....nostalgia sort of makes me prepare Doom I, too many butt-ugly Sandy maps (lol) too much fucking brown, worst music than doom 1, the shittiest excuse for city maps ever, oddball map order. I do love the introduction of the Arch-vile however. And Industrial Zone, Courtyard, Refueling Base, and such are among Doom's finest. But yeah,

So far you are listing only good things.

[Nihlith]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

Everyone seems to have wanted cleaner yet more clinical mapping.. In my opinion there will never be another Doom 2 largely because it wasn’t like that. It was a strange digital hell not much like anything imagined prior, and that was a crucial part of its identity. Its more fun than any other game I’ve played before or since, even 20something years later!

 

Doom 1’s maps are fine and blew me away back then as well, but they wore thinner faster over the years. I get bored some time around Inferno and E4 only has a brief spike of real entertainment. Conversely I can do a full Doom 2 playthrough in one sitting at any moment and love it..

 

I could see that. I was disappointed initially but that has more to do with a thin veneer/add that led my expectations. I'm not sure if it would have been less if there were earth like decorations or city like textures in the levels but it does have amazing replay value. I tend to attribute this to the open allowances the developers gave concerning manipulating the game. I never run through the game anymore without some mod on. The game is more exciting to me because of the unlimited customizable content. 

[BigBoy91]

1 hour ago, Doomkid said:

If the maps were the way everyone wanted them to be the game would be worse and less unique from a level design perspective 

This is true. I'd definitely prefer a little more cohesiveness though!

[Doomkid]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I always wondered if Doom 2's city maps hardly being city-like at all had any sort of impact on the Duke Nukem 3D developers. Clearly they were inspired by Doom in general, but I wonder if the city maps being so believable and realistic (for the time) in Duke 3D was a sort of "call and response" to Doom 2's city maps being nothing at all like that.

 

I still prefer Doom 2, but Duke Nukem 3D does prove that introducing a little more realism doesn't make the game "less fun", but I would still argue that it's less unique and memorable overall (still a classic of course).

[Deleted Account]

I love Doom 2 (Doom is still better in my eyes but yeah) the levels are pretty good. I don't get why people bitch and moan about  the city levels, I think it's a fun format.

[Kute]

1 hour ago, LadyMistDragon said:

It's fine....nostalgia sort of makes me prepare Doom I, too many butt-ugly Sandy maps (lol) too much fucking brown, worst music than doom 1, the shittiest excuse for city maps ever, oddball map order. I do love the introduction of the Arch-vile however. And Industrial Zone, Courtyard, Refueling Base, and such are among Doom's finest. But yeah,

Those are great. Some of my faves

-Dead Simple (Doom Eternal is essentially an entire game made up of Dead Simples haha)

-tricks and traps (so many ways to go about this map)

-chasm (it's huge and has quite a few fun fights, the skinny walkways aren't really hard or terribly annoying - though I wish they weren't there)

-27(again just big, tons of fun fights)

 

 

Only a couple do I outright dislike, and even then - it's impossible to make bad Doom. You can make a big empty warehouse with some guns and ammos and monsters in it, and it'll be fun. The gameplay is so sound and fun. It almost seems unrealistic that the first big FPS happens to be the best. Like it's a psychological trick of some sort. But it really is so much more fun than something like say, Unreal or Sin or Duke Nukem or even Quake.

 

But map 21 is pretty ugly, nonsensical, buggy and lacking in amusing fights.

[LadyMistDragon]

13 minutes ago, Kute said:

-chasm (it's huge and has quite a few fun fights, the skinny walkways aren't really hard or terribly annoying - though I wish they weren't there)

 

 

 

 

Civvie just dissed chasm at the end of his latesty video :P)

[MouthWideOpen]

9 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

Civvie just dissed chasm at the end of his latesty video :P)

Yeah, as in the FPS game Chasm, not Map 24 of Doom 2.

[LadyMistDragon]

Just now, MouthWideOpen said:

Yeah, as in the FPS game Chasm, not Map 24 of Doom 2.

sure, but it's not like it would be too surprising if he was, not with the way he delivers information sometimes. I know that's mostly an act, but you know,

[Doomkid]

Map21 is an exception to my love for Doom 2, just due to ugliness and a lack of thrilling fights as mentioned by Kute. I like that starting room with all the medikits, makes it seem like an epic battle is ahead, but instead it’s just the worst looking map of the game with not too much of interest going on. 20, 22 and 23 are all so much better, 21 is the slump in that chunk of the game.

 

I also often wished Map19 was just a touch less cryptic in terms of progression. It grew on me over time, but I remember it confusing me more than any other map by a long shot.

[Dubbag]

The maps are garbage but the new monster inclusions and the super shotgun are great!

[PeterMoro]

54 minutes ago, Dubbag said:

The maps are garbage but the new monster inclusions and the super shotgun are great!

 

I pretty much agree. The gameplay + new monsters + new weapons were fantastic. I think the maps are not terrible though, I would have liked the maps to have a more story orientated progression, like in Doom2016. Some of the Doom2 maps feel like random maps strung together. I like it when a new map is connected to the end of the previous map.

[Nihlith]

11 minutes ago, PeterMoro said:

 

I pretty much agree. The gameplay + new monsters + new weapons were fantastic. I think the maps are not terrible though, I would have liked the maps to have a more story orientated progression, like in Doom2016. Some of the Doom2 maps feel like random maps strung together. I like it when a new map is connected to the end of the previous map.

 

There were some contiguity issues. This is one of the things I really enjoyed about Hell Ground and a lot of Eternal Doom. In many ways though looking back with the benefits of hindsight and modern map sets seems like Monday night quarterbacking.

[7Mahonin]

I love Doom II for what it is. I think Doom is a better game overall, but Doom II is far better for custom WADs. I remember some of the earliest pWADs I had access to were mostly deathmatch maps, and for a long time I recall spending far more time playing deathmatch than the single player once I beat the game for the first time. I had only ever played simple multiplayer games before this and you can’t even begin to imagine how much more involved fragging friends was compared to beating them in something like Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter. As far as I was concerned at the time, there wasn’t anything else quite like Doom II, except obviously Doom, which I hadn’t played until after I had played Doom II. 

[PlumFun]

Hiya!

 

I think I prefer DOOM 2 over DOOM. Right in the middle of those two is Heretic. Hexen is like that "bad girl" girlfriend...with the smokin hot bod, amazing sense of humour, and wild bedroom skills, but a dark personality and some bad habits. Nice to get together every now and then, as it reminds you "Wow..this is... different! And good! LOVING IT!" ...then the dark and bad parts start to show up and you think "...huh...maybe time to move on to something less... 'complex'...".

;)

 

^_^

 

Paul L. Ming

[Burgish]

I only like it because it reminds me of Faceball 2000.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Burgish_Nilwert

[LadyMistDragon]

10 minutes ago, PlumFun said:

Hiya!

 

. Hexen is like that "bad girl" girlfriend...with the smokin hot bod, amazing sense of humour, and wild bedroom skills, but a dark personality and some bad habits. Nice to get together every now and then, as it reminds you "Wow..this is... different! And good! LOVING IT!" ...then the dark and bad parts start to show up and you think "...huh...maybe time to move on to something less... 'complex'...".

;)

 

^_^

 

Paul L. Ming

 

 

XD. And Strife is the red-headed stepchild, ignored at family gatherings, and will do literally anything for attention.

Edited December 1, 2021 by LadyMistDragon

[Dusty_Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Dubbag said:

The maps are garbage but the new monster inclusions and the super shotgun are great!

I'm gonna have to disagree. It's maps are inconsistent, and a lot are kinda ugly (seriously, Romero maps were not lookers in this wad, the one exception being The Living End. I think The Living End is one of the finest levels ever made for iDtech.) but Doom 2's maps were and are incredibly important. Where would we be as a community without Dead Simple, Entryway, Underhalls, Refueling Base, The Inmost Dens, Suburbs, The Living End, and Icon of Sin? Icon of Sin is bad, but incredibly important. The rest of the are fun, creative, stylish, and unique maps. Dead Simple is still rehashed, decades later, Entryway clones number the hundreds and the original is still fun to blast through, Underhalls introduces THE Super Shotgun, Refueling Base is where interconnectivity and large scale slaughter got cemented in Doom Legend, like a bigger, badder E1M7. The Inmost Dens is slick, fast and fun, Suburbs is another case of awesome Sandy Slaughter, with a great use of powerups and the BFG, The Living End is the poster child for using great atmosphere, tricky fights, and an upward climb to make the best penultimate level possible.

 

Doom 2's maps are inconsistent, I don't like Nirvana, Gotcha! (really don't like this one), The Factory, or Downtown. But that doesn't take away from the great "sleeper" maps. What about The Pit? Tenements (very ugly, but super fun)? Industrial Zone (really awesome Romero map)? Catacombs? I doubt Plutonia could've existed with out this one. Very tough fights and really clean looks, it's one of McGee's best works. Even the Chasm is good. It has lights out atmosphere, amazing traps, consistent visual themes, and a memorable gimmick. Even if that gimmick is the worst part of the map, it's much, much better than Downtown or Barrels O' Fun.

 

What Doom 2 needed was more collaboration between designers to make sure the maps were a bit more visually even and maybe flowed better. Either way, Doom 2 isn't perfect and I still prefer Final Doom, but I will always defend it's mapping quality.

[LadyMistDragon]

24 minutes ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

 

What Doom 2 needed was more collaboration between designers to make sure the maps were a bit more visually even and maybe flowed better. Either way, Doom 2 isn't perfect and I still prefer Final Doom, but I will always defend it's mapping quality.

 I just want to know which Shawn Green maps Sandy Petersen ended up taking the credit for, since he apparently took over a number of them. Also, there aren't even all that many Doom II maps I don't care for at all (The Pit and the Factory mainly, because Nirvana at least had a decent gimmick cube fight, despite its absolutely schizophrenic construction.

Edited December 1, 2021 by LadyMistDragon

[Tony_Danza_the_boss]

Gameplay wise Doom 2 is a masterpiece. Super shotty, addition of the rest of the demons and the rest of the powerups to round out the Doom we know now is excellent. Level-wise is a different story. Both secret levels are excellent as is the Living End, the Inmost Dens, Gotcha! and a few others, but by and large I feel like the levels are super dull especially towards the end compared to Doom 1. 

[Dusty_Rhodes]

23 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

 I just want to know which Shawn Green maps Sandy Petersen ended up taking the credit for, since he apparently took over a number of them. Also, there aren't even all that many Doom II maps I don't care for at all (The Pit and the Factory mainly, because Nirvana at least had a decent gimmick cube fight, despite its absolutely schizophrenic construction.

Ah the Pit is one of my favorites. Awesome music, hordes of monsters, clever traps, plenty of powerups. Maps like it and Trapped on Titan by Jim Flynn are some of my favorite old school style maps.

[INfront95]

10 of 10 because it has The Chasm in it.

[CBM]

I really like both doom and doom 2 maps, even to this day

[MegaZzZeux]

+ More monster varieties

+ One long connected episode

- Soundtrack is nowhere as good as Doom 1's

- The IWAD levels are also a little weaker IMO

 

Great game, and with wads and mods it's even better.

[Obsidian]

It has Arch-Viles.

 

I like Arch-Viles.

[ReaperAA]

The SSG and the new monster additions make Doom 2 far superior to Doom 1 from a mapping point. Doom 1 only has hitscan, melee or simple projectile monsters, whereas Doom 2 has:

• Enemies that heal/create monsters and thus add combat urgency (Arch-vile and Pain Elementals)
• Enemies with area denial capability (Arch-viles on a high platform, using their LOS attack)
• Enemies that have complex projectile attacks that require more than just circle strafe to dodge (mancubus)
• Enemies with homing attacks (revenants)
• Enemies that are great as turrets, but without being hitscan (arachnotrons and revenants)

The vanilla Doom 2 maps however definitely have their ups and downs. The starting 7 maps of Doom 2 are almost on par with E1 of Doom in terms of enjoyment and the next 4 maps are also fine for me. But starting from map12 is where things start going downhill in my eyes. The city maps are not fun to navigate (despite even knowing the layout now) with Citadel being the worst offender. The city episode also ends with Gotcha!, which is arguably Romero's weakest maps in the entire Doom 1 and Doom 2. The hell episode in Doom 2 also starts weak with maps like Nirvana and Catacombs, but it does get better with 4 maps that I really like which are The Abandoned Mines, Monster Condo, The Spirit World and The Living End (arguably Romero's best map from the 90's).

 

Despite all the ups and downs. I don't think the average Doom 2 map is worse than the average Doom 1 map. E1 of Doom 1 is solid, but E2 is just okay and E3 bores me to tears nowadays. The city maps in Doom 2 are still more fun than Inferno. Though the music in Doom 2 is definitely much weaker than Doom 1's music.

 

6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I still prefer Doom 2, but Duke Nukem 3D does prove that introducing a little more realism doesn't make the game "less fun", but I would still argue that it's less unique and memorable overall (still a classic of course).

 

I would argue that Duke3D's city maps are "more" memorable than Doom 2's because of a little more realism in them.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Gregor]

Doom 2 is... Doom 2.

 

Proof me wrong!

[RHhe82]

Doom 2 has a lot of good things to it, especially as far as custom pwads are concerned: monster variety and SSG first and foremosr.

 

That said, I’ve always liked Ultimate Doom more: it hs better map design and better soundtrack. A playthrough of Doom 2 feels, at times, a slog, especially when we enter city levels. Some of the hell levels are not that great either. Now, Ultimate Doom has its duds as well, but the overall design feels much more consistent, and its lows are not that low.

 

I first played Doom 2 soon after it was released (in early 1995 perhaps) and while I loved having more Doom to play, I was still slightly disappointed. Not in a ”Phantom Menace” kind of way, but even back then D_RUNNIN didn’t get me pumped and while I do appreciate Hell Knights now, back in the day they were just recolored barons.

 

Edit: While E2M9 is not exactly a stellar map, I still find Doom 2’s secret levels disappointing as well. In my first playthrough back in the day Wolfenstein recreations was a fun idea, especially as I had played Wolf3D avidly before Doom, but it grew old real fast. E2M9 is a low-effort clunker, but I do find it more replayable than the Wolfenstein tributes. E3M9 can fool you only once, but I can still play it and enjoy it and its concept for what they are - unlike MAP31/32.

Edited December 1, 2021 by RHhe82