Doom 1 or 2?

[ZethXM]

Kinda feel like there's Knee Deep and then there's the rest of Doom 1.

 

I think I'm bored to shit less often on average with Doom 2, but there's definitely still levels I have to be convinced not to skip.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

DOOM 64>>>DOOM>>>>>DOOM 2

 

Also, this is the worst thread ever. For multiple reasons.

[BGreener]

19 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

DOOM 64>>>DOOM>>>>>DOOM 2

The more I play 64 and its custom maps, the closer I am to feeling this way.

[Doomkid]

9 hours ago, Tarnsman said:

I think it's neat to see how the discourse has sort of evolved and how that is reflected in modern PWAD level design.

 

Up to the mid-2010s it felt like Doom 1 was generally preferred over Doom 2 in all aspects besides beastiary and the added SSG. Which was reflected in the community when making more content that stuck a lot closer to D1's formula and design principles. Sort of culminating in the discrepancy in levels of excitement and participation in DTWID vs D2TWID.

 

But now there seems to be a much bigger love for D2's design and not just expanded gameplay. With the rise of "TWIDcore" where most of these projects now feel much closer to D2's design philosophy.

I do think it’s neat seeing the conversation go on over time, but I was struck by how little the points people make have changed. Even in the earlier chunk of this marathon of a thread, there’s a number of people praising the levels in Doom 2 above that of Doom 1, though then and now E1 specifically still seems to get the most praise overall in terms of design.

 

From 2000 to today, people still keep making the exact same remark about Doom 1 having better design, yet they’re clearly only referring to E1 (I’m sorry but someone would have to be insane to call E3 well designed, there are better 1994 wads) and even then I think they’re getting the specific aspects of “texturing/sense of place” confused with “the entirety of design” - I just can’t imagine how shotgunning a lone Baron in a hallway could be seen as “better design” than the thrills of something like Map08, Map11, Map29...

 

I also might be misunderstanding the second part, but basically all the heavy-hitter megawads of the old days that I can think of seem to have a lot more in common with Doom 2 in terms of design on pretty much every front possible, with the sole exception of thematic consistency a la E1.

 

For me the all-time classics would include Alien Vendetta, TNT, Plutonia, Memento Mori, Scythe and a couple others I’m brainfarting on right now. While their texturing consistency is certainly above that of Doom2/E2/E3, and while they have occasional obvious nods to Doom 1 maps here and there (mostly as Easter eggs), pretty much everything else about them seems more similar to Doom2. The ambushes and the way they’re executed, the sense of scale and “grandness” of the maps / the generally larger spaces than Doom1’s halls to fight in, a focus more on action/killing and less on dungeon crawling, etc.

 

All of those classic megawads have numerous encounters that I could liken back to Map16’s famous ambush of “practically every type of hellspawn”. There’s simply no analog for this “common as dirt” setup in Doom1.

 

I guess the long-short of it is the “Doom1 has better design” thing has always just been talk, sans texturing and thematic consistency. When it comes to making levels, the actual gameplay pretty much always feels more like Doom 2, even beyond just the presence of the extra enemies and SSG.

 

The only change I really noticed in mapping culture post-DTWID was that people were more willing to make obviously iwad-inspired maps, which is very nice. I didn’t notice any shift in gameplay design or philosophy in the community as a whole beyond that personally: most people were making and continue to make stuff that frankly reminds me more of AV or Scythe in what it does (or at least tries to do) in the gameplay and design departments.

[roadworx]

10 hours ago, Zaxxon said:

It seems i'm the only one here who likes the super shotgun and the regular shotgun equally. The SSG fires two shells per shot, but the regular shotgun fires almost twice as fast. The SSG is an instrument of destruction at close and mid range, while the regular shotgun's accuracy makes it efficient at longer distances and it's satisfying to snipe down zombies and imps with it. I too wish the SSG was in both games, but it would have been way overpowered against Doom 1's enemy roster.

 

you absolutely aren't the only one - i'm the same way, actually. i use both quite a bit (though i will admit the ssg is waaay more satisfying to use )

 

i love all my children equally <3

 

30 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

From 2000 to today, people still keep making the exact same remark about Doom 1 having better design, yet they’re clearly only referring to E1 (I’m sorry but someone would have to be insane to call E3 well designed, there are better 1994 wads) and even then I think they’re getting the specific aspects of “texturing/sense of place” confused with “the entirety of design” - I just can’t imagine how shotgunning a lone Baron in a hallway could be seen as “better design” than the thrills of something like Map08, Map11, Map29...

 

I also might be misunderstanding the second part, but basically all the heavy-hitter megawads of the old days that I can think of seem to have a lot more in common with Doom 2 in terms of design on pretty much every front possible, with the sole exception of thematic consistency a la E1.

 

For me the all-time classics would include Alien Vendetta, TNT, Plutonia, Memento Mori, Scythe and a couple others I’m brainfarting on right now. While their texturing consistency is certainly above that of Doom2/E2/E3, and while they have occasional obvious nods to Doom 1 maps here and there (mostly as Easter eggs), pretty much everything else about them seems more similar to Doom2. The ambushes and the way they’re executed, the sense of scale and “grandness” of the maps / the generally larger spaces than Doom1’s halls to fight in, a focus more on action/killing and less on dungeon crawling, etc.

 

All of those classic megawads have numerous encounters that I could liken back to Map16’s famous ambush of “practically every type of hellspawn”. There’s simply no analog for this “common as dirt” setup in Doom1.

 

I guess the long-short of it is the “Doom1 has better design” thing has always just been talk, sans texturing and thematic consistency. When it comes to making levels, the actual gameplay pretty much always feels more like Doom 2, even beyond just the presence of the extra enemies and SSG.

 

The only change I really noticed in mapping culture post-DTWID was that people were more willing to make obviously iwad-inspired maps, which is very nice. I didn’t notice any shift in gameplay design or philosophy in the community as a whole beyond that personally: most people were making and continue to make stuff that frankly reminds me more of AV or Scythe in what it does (or at least tries to do) the gameplay and design departments.

i think that that's just the natural result of people figuring out what doom is best at, more than anything. if people were given doom 2's new additions but not doom 2's actual maps, people were gonna eventually realize that they could do so much more with that than just make simple doom 1 dungeon crawl levels. no matter what, it was gonna resemble doom 2 more closely, simply because the guys at id had realized that as well.

 

also, agreed - while i love episode 1, doom 2 does have better gameplay overall (for the most part, anyways)

[Gibbon]

My issue with Doom 2 is that for the most part, the levels are very bland.  Even E3 had a lot of set pieces and objects.  With the exception of MAP1, 4, 11, 18 and 29 I find them very forgettable.  I would say the design very clearly doesn't fit the theme, hell on earth..  where is the earth part?  I see no doomcute desks, roads, buildings or anything that even resembles a single building.  It is very disjointed and always feels that it was put together in a hurry.

 

Take dead simple..  most of the wads in the Pandora shovelware challenge are better designed than that.

 

Now TNT and Plutonia are both superior, but they were not in the vote for some reason..

[Doctor_Spengler]

I prefer doom II only due to the monster variation.

[Senor Cacodemon]

I prefer The ultimate doom because I think the name says it for itself, it's the ultimate doom experience. It is the perfect package for beginners and pros.

[esselfortium]

36 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

It is very disjointed and always feels that it was put together in a hurry.

E2 and E3 of Doom 1 were literally made in like two months

[Dark Pulse]

Just now, esselfortium said:

E2 and E3 of Doom 1 were literally made in like two months

To be fair, a fair bit of E2 was also tweaked Tom Hall stuff.

[NuMetalManiak]

This thread reminds me of April Agitation.

[Captain POLAND]

3 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

FYI, Doom64 kid has been banned, so enough's enough on that front, back to your regularly scheduled Doom 2 is better posting! 

 

I don't see why, since it seemed that he was just misunderstanding why everyone was mad at him. Now he's probably going to go around claiming that he was banned just for liking Doom 1 better or something.

[Major Arlene]

2 minutes ago, Captain POLAND said:

 

I don't see why, since it seemed that he was just misunderstanding why everyone was mad at him. Now he's probably going to go around claiming that he was banned just for liking Doom 1 better or something.

This isn't a place to discuss bans. move on.

[Kor]

I didn't say this earlier but I like both games equally but for different reasons.  However Ive come to see Doom 1 as less fun to make maps for.  It has far less textures and less monsters.  Anytime I would start something for Doom 1 I'd end up switching to Doom 2. 

 

As for the SSG.  It's a huge plus but as one of the comments said it's not very effective from a distance.  It can take three or four hits to kill an imp from a distance with the SSG but can take only one with the regular shotgun.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Kor

[Breezeep]

I definitely prefer Doom 2 over Doom 1 mainly because of the new monsters and the SSG, but I still think Plutonia is my favorite out of all the IWADS.

[Skronkidonk]

I would say Doom 2
The level design can sometimes be really odd which I can appreciate
It brought in lots of new monsters which makes Doom what it is today, and ofc the SSG!
I would also say Doom 2 has more influences in level design compared to Doom 1 IMO
Lastly Doom 2 has cool ideas that were put into the maps and there was a variety of themes in the game.

[Daytime Waitress]

"God save thee, ancient Mariner!

From the fiends, the slaughtermap hordes! -

 

Why look'st thou so?"—With my OP

I polled the DOOMWORLD BOARDS.

[VoanHead]

Fuck it, Doom 2.

I give props to Doom 1 for being the one that started it all, and the better level design, but Doom 2 got the ball rollin’. Final Doom came and, at the time, picked up more steam and gave erbody the test to push themselves via Plutonia. 
I guess I like Doom 2 more b/c even if some of the levels were whack, at least it was versatile in some of the levels and moar monsters.

[Teo Slayer]

Both, both are good

 

Right?

[thiccyosh]

2 minutes ago, Teo Slayer said:

Both, both are good

 

Right?

 

Correct answer, you passed the test.

[Kute]

So I played through episode 1 of Doom this morning to try and really zone in on that perfectness everyone talks about.

 

I don't see it. Don't get me wrong, it's Doom. It's fun and it always will be. I played it in 93, I know what it was like to be playing SMB one second and Doom the next.

 

But I don't really see these perfect levels everyone talks about. I see alot of tech-sewers and hitscanners. 

 

I'm glad Doom 2 rocked the boat. I'm glad the series isn't defined by "survival horror". I think Doom 3 is the natural progression of that side of Doom, and that's not what I personally want.

 

When I think of the finest products in the Doomverse, Eviternity, Valiant, Doom: Eternal, Ancient Aliens - I think all of these things go off Doom 2 more than a strict continuation of Doom 1.

 

For the millionth time, in a historical context, Doom 1 coming first means an absolute ton, it's one of the greatest games of all-time and I think it has an objective argument for #1, whereas Doom 2 is not an impressive enough change to warrant that level of praise. But Doom 2 is so much more fun to play and has so much more to offer. The variety of monsters they added makes for such interesting fight possibilities. Like I said before, if you all disagree, then how come every screenshot I run into on this forum has a SSG or doom 2 monsters in it?

 

I even think Chasm is more fun than your average Doom 1 map. Sue me

[Ludi]

Plutonia B)

[Frost-Core]

Where is Heretic?

[Cruduxy Pegg]

4 minutes ago, Frost-Core said:

Where is Heretic?

Would suck to see Heretic get shafted hard. A lot of people still insist it is just a worse Doom 1 on this forum.

[Codename_Delta]

I prefer Doom 1 for it's gameplay (Yes even The Shores Of Hell, not so much Inferno but there are some good E3 maps) but I do like the ssg and Doom 2's new demons and The Chasm, but Doom 2 is superior in terms of replayabilty, due to Doom 2 being the more preferred game of the two to mod.

Also, Doom 1 is more consistent level enjoyment wise.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Codename_Delta

[Codename_Delta]

2 hours ago, Pegg said:

Would suck to see Heretic get shafted hard. A lot of people still insist it is just a worse Doom 1 on this forum.

I haven't played too much Heretic, but while it's gameplay can get monotonous, it's still better than HeXen... That's coming from someone with barely any experience with HeXen 

[Frost-Core]

4 hours ago, Pegg said:

Would suck to see Heretic get shafted hard. A lot of people still insist it is just a worse Doom 1 on this forum.

I have not beaten it but Dude it looks really awesome! however levels are just about keys n stuff i keep forgetting where i am, anyway heretic is underrated

also if you know how to explain the story to me please do so.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Frost-Core

[sandwedge]

It's amazing that after so many years, the community has finally come together to agree in total consensus that the best Doom game ever made is Doom 3.  Don't bother looking at previous pages, I've pretty much summed the discourse up.  I guess I'm a little surprised, but I can see why pretty much 100% of people believe that.  I mean, it basically takes what made Doom 1 and 2 good and does it all extremely faithfully, but with 3D graphics which are always superior to 2D graphics, especially since Doom 1 and 2 are 2D games.  It also has the best shotgun in all the Doom games, which really surprised me to see a shotgun that was so much better than the Doom 2 Super Shotgun.  I really appreciate being enlightened by this thread, that's all I wanted to share.

[sandwedge]

Finally made a follow up to my previous serious post.  Here it is folks, a tribute to this fine thread.  Hope you all enjoy.

 

 

[Trar]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:46 PM, thiccyosh said:

 

Correct answer, you passed the test.

This question is actually the ultimate koan of Doom. The answer can only be attained through decades of mind-bending, self-starving meditation in an office building in Dallas.

 

(It's obviously Doom 3.)

Edited November 13, 2022 by Trar