Doom 1 or 2?

[Gez]

Dunno, E2 to me is nicely evocative of that "techbase transmogrified by being in Hell" atmosphere. In all of Doom, the only map which I do find really horrible as far as its design go is Mt. Erebus; though Refinery isn't that great either.

In Doom II, I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Crusher, The Pit, Tricks and Traps, Gotcha, Nirvana, The Catacombs, Barrels of Fun, The Chasm, and Icon of Sin. Okay, Nirvana isn't gimmicky; it just plain sucks.

On the other hand, The Courtyard is an example of a good Doom 2 map. It's based around a gimmick as well (exploit infighting as much as possible), but it doesn't feel artificial

[Six]

Gez said:

In Doom II, I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Pit, The Catacombs, The Chasm...

I can understand the other maps listed, by why are these maps in particular considered gimmicky?

Just out of curiosity.

[EvilNed]

I think the "gimmicky" maps is what sets Doom II apart from Doom and raises the bar up a notch. UD is basicly all corridor running with maps that really don't stand out from each other at all. Sure Knee Deep in the Dead is a classic, but after that it goes downhill. E2M1 is a really, really shitty map.

I'm not against people not liking Doom II maps. Hey, if everyone shared the same opinion that'd be dull. But don't tell me Doom II maps are "unrealistic" and don't resemble anything, and then praise the oh-so-generic episodes of UD. Which, as I've already pointed out, don't resemble anything at all!

I love UD, Doom II, Evilution and Plutonia. But out of those, it's really only Evilution that resembles stuff. Doom II has some great ones too, tho. I love Downtown and Suburbs is my favourite deathmatch map of all time. I love the exploration part of Doom II. And some maps in UD are really great in that regard too, like Toxin Refinery!

In short, I love Doom. And I love all Dooms equally. There's nothing sub-par about Doom II's levels in my eyes tho. I think they're one notch above UDs.

[printz]

Maybe the Pit looks way to abstract not to be in some way gimmicky. It has all those unusual raising and lowering floors that connect areas.

The Chasm is obviously designed around the ooze-pits with teleporters and thin walkways motif.

The Catacombs is way too short and designed around that cramped dinky map with compass, and four marble lifts around theme.

[hardcore_gamer]

Gez said:
I have issue with all the gimmicky maps -- The Crusher, The Pit, Tricks and Traps, Gotcha, Nirvana, The Catacombs, Barrels of Fun, The Chasm, and Icon of Sin. Okay, Nirvana isn't gimmicky; it just plain sucks.

Don't forget The Chasm. It looks horrible and it plays horrible.

Also, I actually liked Nirvana allot.

[Gez]

Six said:

I can understand the other maps listed, by why are these maps in particular considered gimmicky?

Just out of curiosity.

A big pit, woopla. Gotta climb the elevators and look at random rooms before going to the next step.

The catacombs seem to have been designed just to feature that compass rose.

The chasm is all about running on catwalks high above radioactive ooze.

EvilNed said:

I think the "gimmicky" maps is what sets Doom II apart from Doom and raises the bar up a notch. UD is basicly all corridor running with maps that really don't stand out from each other at all. Sure Knee Deep in the Dead is a classic, but after that it goes downhill. E2M1 is a really, really shitty map.

Can't say I agree, and you're dismissing all the work done on interconnectivity. It's not just corridors, since there are windows, rooms, courtyards, different levels of elevation, etc. You can get tactical choices such as going through path A to charge the monsters gun blazing, or using path B to get to a place where you can chaingun-snipe them first, or path C to bypass them and attack them from a different angle which will maximize the potential for infighting, etc. There's a lot more non-linearity.

hardcore_gamer said:

Don't forget The Chasm. It looks horrible and it plays horrible.

I didn't.

[EvilNed]

Gez said:

Can't say I agree, and you're dismissing all the work done on interconnectivity. It's not just corridors, since there are windows, rooms, courtyards, different levels of elevation, etc. You can get tactical choices such as going through path A to charge the monsters gun blazing, or using path B to get to a place where you can chaingun-snipe them first, or path C to bypass them and attack them from a different angle which will maximize the potential for infighting, etc. There's a lot more non-linearity.

Woawie, I don't think you and me played the same game! I just finished UD again for the first time in a year maybe and after playing some Doom II lately I was surprised at how downright dull most levels in E2 and E3 were. Most of the levels do not differ much from the other and you can tell that whoever designed them (and I know Sandy did) didn't really put down that much effort into it. Or maybe he did put much effort into it, but hadn't reached the top of his game yet. E2M1 is the perfect, perfect example of this.

[Snakes]

EvilNed said:

. E3M1 is a really, really shitty map.

Fixed.

I don't know, the issue a lot of people have with the gimmicky maps doesn't seem to ring a bell with me. I like more of them than I dislike, that's for sure. Map09 sucks because of gameplay, Map21 sucks in general, Map24 is boring... Those are the 3 I have major issues with. Their gimmicks don't bother me, but their gameplay? You better believe it. Map09's imp/lost soul spam is what really drives me off the wall.

Doom II also had some of the most influential maps of all-time with Map07, Map14 and Map29. Saying the level design was shitty as a generalization is pretty stupid, IMO.

[Six]

Gez said:

A big pit, woopla. Gotta climb the elevators and look at random rooms before going to the next step.

The catacombs seem to have been designed just to feature that compass rose.

The chasm is all about running on catwalks high above radioactive ooze.

Eh, these factors don't stick out too much in comparison to the other gimmick related maps. Of course they're all centred around one thing in particular, but considering others expand beyond this (which is more than what can be said about Gotcha, Tricks and Traps etc). They can justify themselves in a way that would suffice. After all, i had to ask about the relations of those 3 specific maps, otherwise they'd still be considered in par with the rest of the game.

But, this is opinionated in a way.

[kristus]

The Chasm and the Pit are two of my favorite Doom2 maps.

[DuckReconMajor]

EvilNed said:

Suburbs

Every time I think "hmm, maybe Doom 2 isn't so bad," someone brings up this map and I throw up a little in my mouth and start crying.

Chasm is cool though.

[Mr. T]

I think the Cyberdemon trap in map10 is a great example of how much better Doom 2 is in general. Nothing in Doom 1 made me crap myself like that...

[printz]

True. If only the whole Doom 2 played like MAP10...

[EvilNed]

DuckReconMajor said:

Every time I think "hmm, maybe Doom 2 isn't so bad," someone brings up this map and I throw up a little in my mouth and start crying.

Your problem. Not mine. Love that map. No deathmatch level really comes close!

[Use]

kristus said:

The Chasm and the Pit are two of my favorite Doom2 maps.

Mine too! Used to DM in Chasm, weird but fun.

[yellowmadness54]

fishmech said:

GBA Doom did not remove those levels. Jaguar Doom did, and it was also made before Ultimate Doom was released.

GBA Doom 2 was made by entirely different people and barely removed anything.

egh, which ever, my point is, DOOM got old after beating many different versions of it and the original version as well ultimate doom a whole lot. Oh, and the shareware, man I miss those soundless levels :D yeah, doom is what got me into the FPS genre.

[Kagemaru_H]

Use3D said:

Mine too! Used to DM in Chasm, weird but fun.

01, 07, 12, 13, 16, 18, and 32 are best for DM IMHO.

[DawnbyDead]

Splatter said:

stuff

El oh el. Sounds like something on fanfiction.net. I think both games have there merits, but while i couldn't stop playing doom once I started, Doom II just felt tedious after awhile, and I couldn't really get over how alot of the design looked.

[_bruce_]

Mr. T said:

I think the Cyberdemon trap in map10 is a great example of how much better Doom 2 is in general. Nothing in Doom 1 made me crap myself like that...

Doom2 has more of an in your face attitude - violent chaos. Way more ballsy than the original Doom.

[DeathevokatioN]

_bruce_ said:

Doom2 has more of an in your face attitude - violent chaos. Way more ballsy than the original Doom.

Pretty much fucking agreed with this!

And I also don't get the bitching that the levels in DooM 2 "don't represent earth enough". I'm glad ID added the gloomy and sinister abstract feel to the world they created, rather than trying make the levels look like a carbon copy of earth.

I shudder everytime I think about ID wasting time building lots of stupid little uninspired pretty houses with red roofs and white lower textures, filled with toilets, beds, kitchens, and all sorts of pointless details to make it realistic... and then calling it DooM2.... D:.... dogs, cats that walk around aimlessly in different directions, and then "running" away when there's a gunfight... and the airport level getting replaced with the one that looks like it could have been the piece of crap airport from from Modern Warfare 2 (except with monsters and 2.5D graphics). Sounds fun? I'll stick to the levels that "don't represent earth enough", thank you very much.

Every custom wad I've seen where they tried to make the buildings look as realistic as possible has come off looking dull and lacking atmosphere IMO.

[bimlanders]

I agree. Wads that try to be realistic are just distracting. I want to kill monsters in locations with good atmosphere. I don't want realism.

[Andy Johnsen]

Without having read through the entire thread, I just figured I'd add (and risk repeating already said) thoughts; Doom is more thematically solid than Doom2, each episode of Doom has a distinct style / feel, and because of the episodic buildup one is allowed to repeat the same kind of textures and styles for several maps in a row. On the up side, Doom does feel slightly more "realistic" because of its simplistic connected hallway / outside base view design, at least for the first episode. The 2nd and third episode is a real mess, and really the weakest parts of any of the games designwise. Still, nostalgia clouds our judgement, and the simplistic gameplay is ever so addictive. Atmosphere and familiarity as a result of nostalgia is a powerfull thing.

Doom2 is more about consept designs. Instead of just adding hallways, the author had an idea of what to make. You dont find anything like doom2 map11 in Ultimate Doom until the fourth episode, and only a few maps there are up to par imo (e4m2, e4m6 and e4m8). Theres exceptions in both games, but as a whole, Doom2 has the clearly superior design and a more thought through item / monster placement. Its natural that the team grew as map designers from the inital doom episodes till they made Episode 4 and Doom2.

Doom2 is clearly better designed with much more use of height differences and shapes, but less fluid theme wise.

Now, as for comparing the two parts of Final Doom, the quality difference between Plutonia and Evilution is redicolous. Just a few maps in TNT look worthy as an extention of the Doom games, where as Plutonia is full of great consepts.

[kristus]

Andy to the rescue. :)

[DeathevokatioN]

Very well said Andy, I still love E2 and E3 of Doom though... they have a very powerful and dark atmosphere, and as you said, the gameplay is addictive. But then again, I enjoyed the whole series of DooM!

:)

[EvilNed]

I love UD, Doom 2, TNT and Plutonia... Is that weird or something?

[Gez]

Talking about realism in Doom levels is a false lead, IMO. I wouldn't say Doom is more realistic than Doom II. They're both quite unrealistic and abstract. But Doom is more immersive as the ambiance is better conveyed. Things don't look realistic at all, but the disbelief is suspended by the engrossing atmosphere of the levels.

For a purely "gamist" perspective, Doom II's level design may seem superior, but the gameplay gimmicks are not disguised at all, so the levels don't convey an impression of being actual places. Not by failing to be realistic, but by failing to be atmospheric.

[EvilNed]

I have to disagree there. Doom II's level design are way more atmospheric than the majority of Doom I. Knee Deep excluded, of course, and most of E4.

[DeathevokatioN]

DooM 2 had a much more scary and sinister atmosphere compared to the first DooM, at least in my opinion. It's just portrayed in a different way and doesn't really jump out at you if your not looking for it though.

[Gez]

Maps with atmosphere, IMO:

+ E1M1
+ E1M2
+ E1M3
+ E1M4
+ E1M5
+ E1M6
+ E1M7
+ E1M8
+ E1M9
+ E2M1
+ E2M2
- E2M3
+ E2M4
+ E2M5
+ E2M6
+ E2M7
+ E2M8
- E2M9
+ E3M1
+ E3M2
- E3M3 (this one would rather have fitted in E2, theme-wise)
- E3M4
+ E3M5
- E3M6 (I get what they tried to do, but it failed IMO)
+ E3M7
+ E3M8
+ E3M9
+ E4M1
+ E4M2
+ E4M3
+ E4M4
+ E4M5
+ E4M6
+ E4M7
+ E4M8
- E4M9 (feels out of place in that episode)
Tally: 30+, 6- (or 22+, 5- if you don't count Episode 4)

+ MAP01
+ MAP02
+ MAP03
+ MAP04
+ MAP05
- MAP06
+ MAP07
- MAP08
- MAP09
+ MAP10
- MAP11
+ MAP12
- MAP13 (a failure like E3M6)
+ MAP14
+ MAP15
+ MAP16
- MAP17
+ MAP18
+ MAP19
- MAP20
- MAP21
- MAP22
- MAP23
- MAP24
+ MAP25
+ MAP26
+ MAP27
+ MAP28
+ MAP29
- MAP30
- MAP31
- MAP32
Tally: 18+, 14-

Winner: Doom/Ultimate Doom.

This is very subjective of course, but that's the way I perceive these games. So that's why I say Doom is more atmospheric than Doom II. Not that Doom II isn't at all, just that it has a higher proportion of levels that don't fit like they try to be a Doom level and instead focus only on being a Doom level.

[Vegeta]

I think DOOM 2 disappointed many players that expected realistic locations from Earth, and instead that they found just a few maps that barely looked like a city.
I know the DOOM engine has its limitation, but seems that id didn't really tried besides some maps that resemble a city, and a couple of city textures. I mean, come on, doom2city proved that with patience you can make nice city maps.
They didn't add city decorative sprites neither (I'd love to see cars, flaming cars, parking stuff, lamps, etc) but no, the closest thing are flaming barrels.