Using blender to create sprites, some questions

[hardcore_gamer]

I am sure this isn't a new idea by any means, but (and correct me if I am wrong) I don't think this is very common. I am making my own standalone game using the Doom engine, and that means creating my own textures and sprites. I have been watching some beginner blender tutorial videos and the program appears to be a perfect example of "easy to learn but hard to master". So basically what I am thinking is this:

 

Instead of manually drawing lots of sprites by hand in some painting software like gimp or photoshop, would it not be smarter to create actual 3D models in blender and then merely take pictures of it from all the needed angles? Obviously creating the model itself is work, but surely it's much better than manually creating new and new sprites from scratch just so that you can get all the angles is it not? The fact that you can use rigging (skeletal animation basically) would also make it much easier to make the different frames/animation more convincing.

 

But there is also another thing I am wondering, which is a far bigger question: How well exactly do realistic model images work as 2D sprites in a 2.5D game like Doom? While watching the tutorial videos I noticed that with even just moderate effort you can create realistic looking 3D models, or at least realistic compared to the graphics in Doom. Do high-res realistic graphics look stupid when converted into 2D sprite form for a Doom engine game? Or does it look cool? And even if you use high resolution sprites can they still be resized to be the correct size in-game (note that I will be using zdoom for this)?

 

How feasible is my idea of using blender to create my textures and sprites in general?

Edited July 19, 2017 by hardcore_gamer

[Kappes Buur]

http://doomnexus.drdteam.org/Tutorial/model2sprite.html

[hardcore_gamer]

10 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

http://doomnexus.drdteam.org/Tutorial/model2sprite.html

No you misunderstood my question. I wasn't asking for tutorials, I was asking what you think about the idea. Sure low res cartoton graphics like those in Doom look fine as sprites, but what about realistic HD ones?

[kb1]

If you also go with hi-res walls, floors, and weapon overlays, then yes, it'll look great. Otherwise, it can stand out pretty badly.

[Zanieon]

It will all depend in the way you want to render such thing for real, the attempts i made at making Hellknight and Baron of Hell sprites from Doom '16 made them looks like a Doom 64 sprite, DrPyspy managed to use other methods and rendered Cyberdemon, Spider Mastermind, Imp and Cacodemon exactly as a legit 93 Doom sprite.

So afterall, this will depends in your patience to get the thing done properly and your experience with the program.

[KillPixel]

I'm using sprites rendered from 3D models in blender, you can see an example here.

 

Quote

Do high-res realistic graphics look stupid when converted into 2D sprite form for a Doom engine game?

 

Yes.  I thought HD sprites would be awesome (high resolution, high framerate) but they end up looking just like models.  Even this test, which is fairly low res, looked like a model in-game.  There are other issues too, such as how "readable" the sprite is from a distance.  Realistic proportions in a doom-like simply don't work.

 

Bottom line: HD sprites neither look good nor are appropriate for a doom-like.

[snapshot]

If you intend to make this for GZDoom it would be better if you simply use your 3D Models directly rather than exporting a set of frames, but then the result will be pretty much as terrible, I have yet to see a mod that uses 3D Models without making them look so unrealistic and unfitting.

[hardcore_gamer]

14 hours ago, Zanieon said:

the attempts i made at making Hellknight and Baron of Hell sprites from Doom '16 made them looks like a Doom 64 sprite

 

That's pretty cool actually. I like Doom 64's art style.

 

12 hours ago, KillPixel said:

I'm using sprites rendered from 3D models in blender, you can see an example here.

 

 

Yes.  I thought HD sprites would be awesome (high resolution, high framerate) but they end up looking just like models.  Even this test, which is fairly low res, looked like a model in-game.  There are other issues too, such as how "readable" the sprite is from a distance.  Realistic proportions in a doom-like simply don't work.

 

Bottom line: HD sprites neither look good nor are appropriate for a doom-like.

 

Your game is looking sick brah! Anyway I'm not sure what is wrong with the sprite animation you posted. It looks cool to me.

 

7 hours ago, dmg_64 said:

If you intend to make this for GZDoom it would be better if you simply use your 3D Models directly rather than exporting a set of frames, but then the result will be pretty much as terrible, I have yet to see a mod that uses 3D Models without making them look so unrealistic and unfitting.

I have always thought 3D models looked terrible in Doom. Though maybe they can be useful for creating static objects that don't have to animate. Things like decoration objects, ammo boxes, medkits etc.

Edited July 20, 2017 by hardcore_gamer

[KillPixel]

Quote

Your game is looking sick brah! Anyway I'm not sure what is wrong with the sprite animation you posted. It looks cool to me.

 

Thank you :)  The sprite looks fine in a vacuum, but in the context of a game it simply doesn't work.  The "realistic" proportions made it hard to see and the resolution never registered as being "pixelated" because you never got close enough to notice.

 

I made a couple guides some time ago to compare "HD" sprites to sprites of other games,  perhaps they may be of some use to you: texel density, proportions.

 

Also, I said "HD sprites neither look good nor are appropriate for a doom-like".  I realize this sounds a bit overconfident and presumptuous.  In my opinion, based on my tests, I believe this is the case.  I could very well be mistaken; I could be going about it all wrong.  In any case, if you explore this route any further pleases share as I'd like to see what you come up with :D

Edited July 20, 2017 by KillPixel

[40oz]

Heretic, Hexen, and Doom64 appear to use 3D models as sprites.

 

The defining feature about these models, in Heretic especially, is that the models appear to be cleaned up later. I did a frankensprite of an imp and Heretics sabreclaw monster, and I quickly found out that Heretics monster sprites are actually very grainy and kinda sloppy looking. Apparently most of the monster's three front facing angles for each monster got extra editing attention to look as cool as they do (since you often see these frames up close most often)

 

Using 3D models has been something that I find pretty attractive, especially for the ability to get perspective right for a three dimensional object with rotations. The problem is when someone does that, and stops after they got all their frames. There's more work to be done when it comes to coloring them properly with the pallets, using contrast to give their bodies more definition, and to "look" like a sprite. But you can get away with doing it the Heretic way and only putting a lot of attention into the three front angles, which is way less work than drawing the sprites on a flat canvass from scratch. And I can never get the perspectives right anyway.

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, 40oz said:

The problem is when someone does that, and stops after they got all their frames. There's more work to be done when it comes to coloring them properly with the pallets, using contrast to give their bodies more definition

 

Is this really the case though if you are using Zdoom and blender? Zdoom supports PNG images so it's not like you are limited in the same way as you would be if you were using vanilla Doom. And blender is so advanced I'm sure it can allow you to take care of pretty much everything in-editor.

Edited July 21, 2017 by hardcore_gamer

[40oz]

I dont know, I guess it depends on what you want your game to look like. Its a personal opinion of mine to always do what I can to make all the art assets look harmonious with each other. I think sprites that look like raw 3D models can look pretty crummy in a doom-like game. I haven't seen what you've done yet though so I'm speaking pretty unspecifically.

[scifista42]

Just taking a picture of a perfect model doesn't necessarily make a perfect (or even good) sprite.

[hardcore_gamer]

9 minutes ago, 40oz said:

 I think sprites that look like raw 3D models can look pretty crummy in a doom-like game.

A sprite like that would look stupid in Doom because all the other art assets don't look like that. But remember that I am making an entire new game, where ALL of the assets would look like that. But whatever, I guess time will tell if this works or not. I will be happy to post something in this thread again once I have made something.

[Revae]

I use Sculptris/Maya and photoshop for a lot of my sprites.  It's a pretty good way to do it imo.  You still have to paint over things to some extent in photoshop.  One tricky thing you can do to hide the 3D-ness is to batch gradient/innershadow the renders in photoshop.  But you can't get away from having to do some cleanup work, unless that's the style your going for I guess.
I made this mini tutorial some time ago to vaguely show some of my process (click it):

Edited July 22, 2017 by Revae

[KillPixel]

Revae, cool tut!  Wish I saw this a year ago!

[hardcore_gamer]

I decided to drop the money for ZbrushCore since its a lot cheaper than the full thing and yet still looks more advanced than Scultris (the program Revae used to create the creature above). I have learned most of the basics so far but still have plenty to learn it seems. I have completed my first model, though I'm afraid it looks like a piece of shit because I made it on the fly while watching the video tutorials and basically had no idea what I was doing:

 

 

[Tango]

if you were going for "creepy as fuck" then you definitely hit the nail on the head

[KillPixel]

@hardcore_gamer - That's a great start!  I'm certain that after you familiarize yourself with modeling that you'll pump out some really cool stuff.

[hardcore_gamer]

I just shat out another model, and this time I used some actual textures (the previous monster was just colored) which I borrowed from Doom 3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I might actually animate this one in blender and turn it into a sprite.

[Revae]

Those are good starts. The only reason I suggested sculptris is it's a less convoluted program for beginners (even after getting good with zbrush, it's interface is a mess) and you can import your models into zbrush later anyway. Then remesh(retopologize) them and bake the details back onto the mesh with pretty much no loss.

 

Though it was never finished, zbrush bought out the dev, sculptris still has the best 3d sketching that I've seen. Using both is good for going from quick concept to finish imo though.

[hardcore_gamer]

1 hour ago, Revae said:

Those are good starts. The only reason I suggested sculptris is it's a less convoluted program for beginners (even after getting good with zbrush, it's interface is a mess) and you can import your models into zbrush later anyway. Then remesh(retopologize) them and bake the details back onto the mesh with pretty much no loss.

 

Though it was never finished, zbrush bought out the dev, sculptris still has the best 3d sketching that I've seen. Using both is good for going from quick concept to finish imo though.

 

Sculptris just feels to limited but you have a point about the interface.

 

Anyways I am having a problem. When I import the obj model into blender all the textures are missing for some reason and it just appears as a white model. What do I need to do in order for the textures to show up in blender?

[snapshot]

Change viewport shading to Texture, it's to the right of Mode selection Menu.

[hardcore_gamer]

20 minutes ago, dmg_64 said:

Change viewport shading to Texture, it's to the right of Mode selection Menu.

Its still just a white model. Do I need to do something more than just export the obj model in zbrush and then load it in blender for textures to show up?

[Revae]

If you put the textures on it in zbrush it's probably skinning it per poly, which is just coloring the model directly instead of using a texture. You need to uv map the model and either paint or bake the textures on. I don't know much about zbrush painting though.

 

The model is going to be very (too) dense for uv mapping. You can probably auto uv map it and bake the textures on.

[hardcore_gamer]

40 minutes ago, Revae said:

If you put the textures on it in zbrush it's probably skinning it per poly, which is just coloring the model directly instead of using a texture. You need to uv map the model and either paint or bake the textures on. I don't know much about zbrush painting though.

 

The model is going to be very (too) dense for uv mapping. You can probably auto uv map it and bake the textures on.

 

Is this possible to do in the core version of zbrush though? GoZ is not included in Core and I think you need that to make the textures or paint work show up in blender.

[Revae]

No idea. Don't know anything about the core version. If you can retopo and uv in the core version the obj export should export all that. Not sure about exporting textures.

Often when you're seeing all white on an imported model it's because it generated a default material or some such. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Revae

[hardcore_gamer]

I have been playing with some tools such as gimp to pixelize my images to make them look more "like Doom". Here is a pixelized version of the evil spider creature I posted earlier (it's been given new textures as well). Do you think this looks serviceable?

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by hardcore_gamer

[scifista42]

Watch out for the pixels at the boundaries with the transparent part of the sprite. I recommend to put the sprite onto an extremely contrasting background, such as purple, then adjust the boundary pixels so that they won't fade into any background color (grey, purple, whatever), but remain consistent with the color of the actual sprite (in your case, light brown and red).

[Lore]

This is great subject. I made this silly picture today to tell you some of the "quiet information" about 3d rendering. It doesn't answer a lot and may burst out even more questions about 3d-based spriting in your mind, but maybe it is a short entertainment at least. :D