What do you think about Icon of Sin maps?

[galileo31dos01]

They can be the typical last fight in a megawad or a simple random map containing monster spitters and a box to shoot rockets. I'm not a fan of any IoS map, since they usually mark the end of a (mega)wad and it doesn't feel like I fought something, interesting. Some of these kind of maps come in puzzles to solve, others relay on the original idea (triple-lift-one-rocket-at-a-time), and many other ideas. And there are also regular maps featuring an IoS: Requiem has map 23, which was really unexpected that first time I've played it; Ancient Aliens has map 18, just did this map a few minutes ago, which inspired me to create this thread.

 

I've been in this forum for 5 months or so, I'm sure this topic has been touched many times before, but I'd like to read newer opinions, so share please.

[termrork]

I really like them! Especially if it is really the most difficult boss in the game. I.e. like in doom2, in my opinion you need the most skill for map30. I even remember my brother was never until a few years ago, able or never figured out how to beat this level without idclip xD.

[Graf Zahl]

What can I say?

 

The original concept was lame already. Seeing it recreated ad infinitum in user mods has killed all tolerance I might have had for it by now.

 

[Matthias]

To be honest I don't like them at all :D

 

When I was young I didn't like the Icon of Sin concept. I didn't know how to solve it first and then when I did, I found it pretty lame. I really think the Map 30 should have had some sort of cool boss. ...Like the Doom 64 for example. Also in the map there is no place to hide, so if you're on the lift, then aranchnotron can push you down or arch-vila burn you to dead.

 

When I reach the map 30 in a megawad and I got to the point when I met Icon of Sin boss, I usually consider the megawad over and I quit the game.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Matthias

[Deleted_Account]

I try not to think about them.

[Misty]

I think traditional Icon of Sin fight is old, but I don't mind if I need fight with it in old way. To create interesting fight with this boss, it requires some creativity and imagination. 

[StoneMason]

I don't mind the spawnshooters and what not. Its mainly the part where I have to use a lift and time my rockets that I'm tired of. Alien Vendetta map30 can die in a fire for all I care.

[Memfis]

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[printz]

I like about icons of sin that their implementation is all up to the mapper. The puzzle can be as complex as possible it is to survive. Also the infinite spawning means the player is in a danger like nowhere else in the game, and it's ok, because this is the end anyway. The difficulty can be upped indefinitely.

[DAZZER]

2 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

The original concept was lame already. 

Really ? I was pretty surprised and thought it was a cool and challenging idea to end the game. But yeah today "Icon of Sin" Maps are pretty lame.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

I didn't find it lame the first time I fought it. Hell the map is one of the most fun boss maps to replay since you can use it as a monster arena after you beat it once, Compared to garbage like e3m8 which are never worth replaying and not impressive\threatening the first time around.

[Spectre01]

It really depends on the execution and I don't have any general vendetta against IoS maps. Anything to do with shooting rockets while riding a lift is obnoxious and I much prefer encounters where after doing XYZ you can get to the correct spot and finish the fight. A survival arena type encounter as the boss brain is exposed on a timer is also cool. Something like map30 in Speedo Doom or the final phase in Hellbound map30.

[durian]

Love 'em - have enjoyed playing them on repeat for more time than I'd care to admit -  though think there's probably more that could be done with them.

[NuMetalManiak]

They are okay unless they have roadblocks that make it excruciatingly hard to get to the brain. Sometimes cyberdemons, spiderdemons, and hitscanners are added to these maps because those enemies never get spawned (and I'm pretty sure someone can dehacked them into the spawn roster). Actually, I prefer those without lots of already-strewn enemies in them, unless it's MAP30 of AV.

[Voros]

I think they're one of things that mappers haven't fully utilised yet. And I've got better things to do than whining about map30 maps.

I see them as opportunities rather than borefests. Frankly, I've never disliked them, it just needed some crucial timing to play them, with the help of trial-and-error. Freelook breaks it though :P most of the time.

Obviously, these maps can be made to be something different and yet cool. Take a look at how Perdition's Gate did its map30. You don't fight the boss here, but rather your goal is basically to outrun it's spawn cubes. And look at Strain's map30 it's basically

A survival arena type encounter as the boss brain is exposed on a timer

PS - I'd love to see a 32 megawad consisting of IoS fights of all kinds (with proper difficulty progression ofc).

Edited July 28, 2017 by Voros

[Phade102]

I really dont like them. in my opinion it adds a level of randomness that no level of balancing can actually solve. I prefer throwing hordes of monsters at you over one icon of sin, at least then I can control what you face.

[Graf Zahl]

2 hours ago, DAZZER said:

Really ? I was pretty surprised and thought it was a cool and challenging idea to end the game. But yeah today "Icon of Sin" Maps are pretty lame.

The concept is lame because it lives and dies with an inane limitation of the game, i.e. not being able to look up or down.

 

[ShoDemo]

I don't mind Icon of Sin maps. I remember from the first time that I played it in Doom 2, that I had trouble beating it, until I discovered the way. Then, I felt it was satisfying killing it and having it explode with red smoke coming out of it. I don't know if I will get the same feeling, after playing Map 30 a second time though.

 

Basically, I find it to be quite a unique boss and I see in it the genius of id. They made a wall final boss!!! Who else can make a wall even remotely interesting and feel like a creature?

Also, it is a huge joke/Easter egg by itself (the hidden Romero head and the phrase <<To win the game you must kill me John Romero.>>)

But for me, it has a main disadvantage. IT'S A WALL!!! So, I think id did whatever they could to make this wall interesting (it's an excellent wall, to be honest), but a giant free roaming monster would have certainly made for a more satisfying boss fight, in my opinion.

 

About custom IoS battles, I haven't tried any of them. This means that I don't have an opinion on those yet. 

[CzechMate29200]

Well, I mean, it's a fucking wall...not to much going on there. I actually thought it was supposed to be Satan (stuck on a wall) until someone told me otherwise. 

 

I think maybe a map with two (or Hell, maybe even three) IoSes might be funner.

 

@ShotgunDemolition i think Brutal Doom Hell on Earth Starter Pack had the most intense IoS final battle I personally have ever played.

Edited July 28, 2017 by CzechMate29200

[rehelekretep]

actual IoS Romero-head maps where you have to jump off a lift and time your rockets are godawful (doom2 30, av30)

maps where Romero-head stands in for something else and it becomes vulnerable after some time (aforementioned sod30, ESP30(?) are cool

maps with the spawner are cool as well (aaliens18)

[Major Arlene]

There's a WAD I'm playing now called Shadows of the Nightmare Realm- it has a really interesting IoS fight :)

[Albatross]

When I was a kid, I thought the only way to beat map30 is to use cheats and the "real" ending is Doomguy dying fighting overwhelming odds. Took me years to finally realize where to shoot.

 

Today, I'm not a fan of IoS maps because I dislike the idea of infinite number of monsters. But I don't hate them and always complete them.

[Nine Inch Heels]

59 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

There's a WAD I'm playing now called Shadows of the Nightmare Realm- it has a really interesting IoS fight :)

Hehe, @YukiRaven those were some interesting times. I'm still toying around with the idea of "Shadows of the chillax-realm", by the way :p

[Voros]

The original IoS map would've been better if it hinted as to where to shoot the damn thing.

[UglyStru]

Everytime I play through a megawad, I dread reaching MAP30 because I'm so damn tired of Icon of Sin maps. Some are pretty cool like Swift Death's encounter. I also don't mind the ones who nerf Romero's HP down to nothing so it doesn't involve me timing a ton of rockets into a tiny hole while being bombarded by Lost Souls. 

 

Valiant's MAP30 was incredible. I'd take the Supervile over a Romero fight anyday. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by stru

[Nine Inch Heels]

1 minute ago, Voros said:

The original IoS map would've been better if it hinted as to where to shoot the damn thing.

Maybe polish the visor of your helmet before going in next time. ;-)

[Voros]

Yes. Obviously that tiny hole is the target. Silly me!

I'd rather rip those white eyes out.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Voros

[CzechMate29200]

12 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Maybe polish the visor of your helmet before going in next time. ;-)

It took me a long time to figure it out, like days, weeks, hell maybe even a month...it is kinda hard to figure out. (Granted though that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer sooo :/)

Edited July 28, 2017 by CzechMate29200

[Nine Inch Heels]

Just now, CzechMate29200 said:

It took me a long time to figure it out, like days, weeks, hell maybe even a month...it is kinda hard to figure out. (Granted though that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer :/)

To be fair, it's easy not to exactly know what to do at first. But I kinda feel like, as soon as the lift shows up, there's some good chances for "educated guesses". What I had problems with at first, was getting a reliable feel for the correct height, especially in order to get more than 1 rocket in, I'll give it that.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

So how did you realize you need to use the RL first few deaths :p. I remember timing BFG and SSG shots to ill effect and wondering why the hell do the projectiles deal no damage until the RL made it scream haha.