Doom slaughtermap with a billion/trillion or even octillion enemies?

[Benjogami]

37 minutes ago, nxGangGirl said:

Even from different posts in different threads?

lol, probably. I read most of these sorts of threads. It's a guilty pleasure.

 

There are a few problems with your position. The definition of slaughter is not agreed upon. Even if we accept this poor definition where "slaughter" means "high monster count," and we accept that people sometimes say "slaughter maps are too hard for you," and even if we accept that "high monster count maps are too hard for you" means "all high monster count maps are hard," it still does not imply that "only high monster count maps are hard." But that is how you represented what other people were saying to you. And it's wrong. To me, what you said seems like a weak attempt to snipe some gotchas into the thread, and I felt it was necessary to let you know how poor your aim is.

 

 

[Ancalagon]

Why are slaughter maps looked down upon round 2 *grabs popcorn*

[nxGangrel]

3 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

There are a few problems with your position. The definition of slaughter is not agreed upon. Even if we accept this poor definition where "slaughter" means "high monster count," and we accept that people sometimes say "slaughter maps are too hard for you," and even if we accept that "high monster count maps are too hard for you" means "all high monster count maps are hard," it still does not imply that "only high monster count maps are hard." But that is how you represented what other people were saying to you. And it's wrong. To me, what you said seems like a weak attempt to snipe some gotchas into the thread, and I felt it was necessary to let you know how poor your aim is.

I don't consider slaughter maps just high monster count. Monster density is important as well and I take that into account (as it would make no sense to call a level a slaughter map because it has 700 monsters yet the level could take upwards of 12 minutes to finish because of how large it is). My point is that I've perceived some people to have this idea that only large amounts of monsters make the game difficult (large by density of the level, not entirely the quantity for the reason I stated above). And all I've ever tried to make the point was, it isn't hard, and I find them tedious. Call me wrong all you want, that's how I've seen things. I know I haven't detailed my comments, so I'm going to be taken out of context.

[Nine Inch Heels]

3 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

Why are slaughter maps looked down upon round 2 *grabs popcorn*

Here, have an orange. ;-)

[GarrettChan]

34 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Here, have an orange. ;-)

Well, I guess I'm too late to catch the thread... Probably I should just join the audience and... have some curry which I made for my dinner :P

[geo]

On 10/11/2017 at 1:42 AM, 42PercentHealth said:

That's just crazy...

Some would say that's Nuts.

[baja blast rd.]

3 hours ago, nxGangGirl said:

And all I've ever tried to make the point was, it isn't hard, and I find them tedious.

Have you played these 'not hard, but tedious' slaughtermaps with saves? That's nearly always the case for people with this viewpoint.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by rdwpa

[nxGangrel]

42 minutes ago, rdwpa said:

Have you played these 'not hard, but tedious' slaughtermaps with saves? That's nearly always the case for people with this viewpoint.

 

uh yeah? I'm a bit of a quick save whore.

[baja blast rd.]

That explains things -- it's not really possible to judge the difficulty of something properly if the goal is to beat it with saves. As long as you aren't wholly inexperienced, almost anything can be trucked through with enough saving and loading, and that's a lot different from beating it in a single segment. 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by rdwpa

[Da Werecat]

11 hours ago, nxGangGirl said:

I've been under the impression that you (and a few others) thought I disliked slaughter maps because "they're too hard", specifically because of the monster count since they're slaughtermaps.

Well, it sorta has been explained for me already, but still: I don't really see the connection. "You're just bad at maps with high monster counts" doesn't lead to "only high monster counts are hard" in my head.

 

Can't say that I connect difficulty to monster counts, but I may have used the "bad at slaughtermaps" argument - not on you specifically, but in general. This is aimed (by me, at least) at the whinier part of the slaughtermap misappreciacion crowd. Slaughtermaps are being known as less accessible to casual players; plus when people are expressing their dislike with anger, it's not unreasonable to assume that bruised ego is involved.

Obviously, it can't be the case in every single instance, but it seems appropriate as a low-effort response to low-effort criticism. Maybe sometimes it becomes a knee-jerk reaction.

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Da Werecat

[Nine Inch Heels]

5 hours ago, nxGangGirl said:

I'm a bit of a quick save whore.

Why not try and record a single segment demo for one of the easier slaughtermaps out there? Something like Speed of Doom 31, phmlspd 12, or maybe just plutonia 32? These maps aren't grind-heavy, and you should be able to clear each one of them in less than 10 minutes quite comfortably. Who knows, maybe that's something you might enjoy more than you thought you would?

[Arctangent]

Y'know, as much as it's correct that ZDoom's greater amount of calculations per monster tanks the framerate hard if you've got a lot of monsters, it's hard to deny how much stacking monsters on top of each other and automation through script helps with dumping stupid amounts of monsters in a map.

 

 

toomanyskulls.zip

[nxGangrel]

11 hours ago, rdwpa said:

That explains things -- it's not really possible to judge the difficulty of something properly if the goal is to beat it with saves. As long as you aren't wholly inexperienced, almost anything can be trucked through with enough saving and loading, and that's a lot different from beating it in a single segment. 

 

I typically don't play with saves. Especially for a first time playthrough except for when I exit out the game. If I end of dying a lot I might resort to the Major Arlene tactic of resurrecting a till the level is done (sorry hon :P). But when I play through an entire wad, then I'll save a lot.

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Why not try and record a single segment demo for one of the easier slaughtermaps out there? Something like Speed of Doom 31, phmlspd 12, or maybe just plutonia 32? These maps aren't grind-heavy, and you should be able to clear each one of them in less than 10 minutes quite comfortably. Who knows, maybe that's something you might enjoy more than you thought you would?

It's not entirely the amount of monsters that matters to me, it's how the level plays. Not suggesting the wads you mentioned are all entirely bland. I guess I just prefer more gimmicky levels (?)

Also, why record a demo? Unless you just wanted to watch me, which was probably your reason

[BigDickBzzrak]

GangGirl, you are currently Leonidas and the entire DW slaughter-fanatic hivemind is Xerxes, i.e. you lose no matter how heroically you fight. My friendly advice is to give up as those people are brainwashed beyond any hope of redemption and cannot be brought back. (I do commend your heroism though)

 

Ooooooor you can do me a huge favour and carry on with this very entertaining CIVIL AND POLITE DISCUSSION

[Nine Inch Heels]

26 minutes ago, nxGangGirl said:

I guess I just prefer more gimmicky levels (?)

Also, why record a demo? Unless you just wanted to watch me, which was probably your reason

Ya slaughtermaps are not necessarily the most gimmicky of maps for the most part. Some have quirky interactions in them, which makes it so they behave a bit different depending on what you do at which point in time, though.

 

Frankly, I don't mind watching others play. But it's more about seeing oneself play that's the interesting part, imo. When I watch a demo I made, I always see something that I think I could do better than I did during the run. It's simply a very nice learning experience, from my POV. And knowing you record something also adds a bit of a "it matters" feeling to it, at least that's how it is for me personally. It's not like I was suggesting you to go all in on doing a run for the Speed Demos Archive, but maybe there's a chance you might, in case recording and watching demos is more fun than you might think it is.

 

Gotta agree with rdwpa though, beating a map saveless feels different than beating it with saves, the same applies to how playing a map feels like. It's like the longer you're in the run, the more the mistakes start to matter, it's just a psychological type of thing that's going on there, and that also provides some sense of accomplishment, more than a segmented play would. Might not be true for everybody, but might as well give it a try and see if something changes for you. Worst case: It makes no difference at all. Best case: You get some more mileage out of your favourite maps, for example.

[dew]

@nxGangGirl, I gotta make like Maes and repost my own old crap.

 

 

Now that your mind is completely blown away with the genius concept of separating "slaughter" from "challenge", the path to mutual understanding is within grasp. Peace out!

[GarrettChan]

24 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Gotta agree with rdwpa though, beating a map saveless feels different than beating it with saves, the same applies to how playing a map feels like. It's like the longer you're in the run, the more the mistakes start to matter, it's just a psychological type of thing that's going on there, and that also provides some sense of accomplishment, more than a segmented play would. Might not be true for everybody, but might as well give it a try and see if something changes for you. 

Hmm, you somehow told me real story. Doing pistol start, single segment runs greatly improve me skill. Also, about the long run thing, I guess it's a universal human thing, unless someone is cold blooded, or has too much time to spare ;P  In my opinion, it's not a "static" absolute number of length, but it depends on difficulty. For example, I felt the same after 10 min in my SoD Map13 UV Max/Reality run as after 60 min in my CC Map29 UV Max run. (or this is an excuse for me being sucky lol)

 

^^^^@dew  Oh god... the best.

Edited October 13, 2017 by GarrettChan

[TimeOfDeath666]

Nine Inch Heels said:

Why not try and record a single segment demo

Not gonna happen. Ever since I joined doomworld and zdaemon there have been vocal slaughtermap haters and none of them have ever recorded a demo, because anyone who can quickly beat slaughtermaps in a single segment demo is unable to hate slaughtermaps.

Depending on who makes it, slaughtermaps are the pinnacle of doom mapping, but they'll always have plenty of haters and be misunderstood by many.

[Arctangent]

55 minutes ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

Depending on who makes it, slaughtermaps are the pinnacle of doom mapping, but they'll always have plenty of haters and be misunderstood by many.

55 minutes ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

always have plenty of haters and be misunderstood by many.

55 minutes ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

pinnacle of doom mapping

i wonder why

[Tristan]

dew's graph puts me in pretty much the same place for both politics and doom maps, haha. Though I've got to say casual slaughter does sound fun. I think antares built a map with hordes of zombies and imps or something, and I still need to check that out. From what I saw of Oscillation in ZDaemon last night, the early maps seemed to have a feeling of "slaughtermaps for people that don't like them." More of that kind of thing would be neat, I suppose.

 

1 hour ago, TimeOfDeath666 said:

Depending on who makes it, slaughtermaps are the pinnacle of doom mapping.

That just seems dismissive of any good map that isn't slaughter.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Eris Falling

[baja blast rd.]

Searched the word 'pinnacle' on DW and these came up about various things, among others: 

 

On 2/21/2017 at 11:11 AM, Jayextee said:

Mt. Erebus is the pinnacle of Doom's more open-ended gameplay

 

On 3/7/2017 at 4:18 PM, Job said:

The Master Levels represent the pinnacle of Doom mapping. Excellent authors involved, great maps.

 

On 6/23/2016 at 6:03 AM, Spectre01 said:

I can't say enough about the visuals but it's up there at the pinnacle of Doom engine aesthetics.

 

On 10/30/2015 at 3:21 PM, mouldy said:

it really has to be said this is the pinnacle of doom artistry for me.

 

On 1/24/2016 at 0:57 AM, rdwpa said:

I think the cyber mastermind and arachnobaron pictured in the first link are the pinnacle of silly.

 

On 5/10/2015 at 0:14 PM, scifista42 said:

This. They are the pinnacle of vanilla-friendly complexity that also looks and plays great.

 

I doubt anyone would get their panties in a horde over these. It's just how people talk about what they like, and I didn't see anything objectively offensive about TimeofDeath's comments. And given the random vitriol hurled at slaughtermaps, I definitely don't mind seeing some unqualified love thrown their way.

 

 

[Tristan]

Fair. It's not a term I've seen used often so it came across as kind of an objective statement to me. To be honest, I get that feeling with a lot of pro-slaughter posts..then again I imagine that is how the other side of the argument comes across, and I've probably done it too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Something that's surprised a few people when they found out, I did a UV max of Plutonia MAP32 a few years ago. It's on DSDA, right down near the bottom of the section :D Very rewarding when I finally managed it, I have to admit.

[Mikami41]

This thread only needs this music...

 

[Nine Inch Heels]

11 minutes ago, Eris Falling said:

Something that's surprised a few people when they found out, I did a UV max of Plutonia MAP32 a few years ago. It's on DSDA, right down near the bottom of the section :D Very rewarding when I finally managed it, I have to admit.

'Nuff said... ;-)

[reflex17]

"Aliens" Doom mod by Justin Fisher has no enemies of any kind in the first level, obviously intended by the author, just like the movie, to create suspense/pacing and all that. Tough to make a good Doom map with no monsters, but it can be really successful if the player knows that there's more to it.

 

Slaughter maps are the exact opposite of "not a single enemy in the map", regardless of how the rest of the level is laid out. The drama/suspense is created most often in the first opening screen, the sight of an octillion imps can do that, I suppose.

 

Nobody thinks of Doom as having literally 0 hellspawn in a level at first, most players also don't generally think of enemies in a single map counting in the hundreds, thousands or more. Both "genres" are smaller segments of the population, both topics have led to a lot of debate over the course of Doom custom levels. The idea for both styles exists in the base game - both slow paced survival horror and fast-paced, challenging arenas. 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by reflex17

[loveless]

3 minutes ago, reflex17 said:

no enemies of any kind in the first level, obviously intended by the author, just like the movie, to create suspense/pacing and all that.

This is also swtw01.

[reflex17]

3 minutes ago, loveless said:

This is also swtw01.

I don't understand sry. What does swtw01 mean?

[Nine Inch Heels]

2 minutes ago, reflex17 said:

I don't understand sry. What does swtw01 mean?

 

[Tristan]

@Nine Inch Heels haha, almost, but I had to call it quits with Go 4 It. I think I could get one of the keys but that thing is crazy. I guess nowadays I'm just not willing to put in the time to practice Doom. As a result I suck, slaughtermaps are too hard to be any fun for me.

 

I cleared out most of the last fight of Oscillation MAP09 on the TNS session yesterday, granted this was with a setting that would change monster damage periodically, so I had a lot of help from 0% mode, but I was shitting myself when it switched to 200%. When I crossed that exit line..yeah that was nice.

 

I'll always prefer the less bonkers, atmosphere-driven stuff, and I'd never put a slaughtermap in one of my own WADs if I ever finished those damn things, but the more I think about this topic (which I have a lot recently as there's been a lot of discussion on it), the less cold I feel to the slaughter genre, I guess.

[reflex17]

@Nine Inch Heels ty for the link!

 

@loveless I see now, i'm not very good with acronyms and stuff like that, except the _really_ well known ones like, say 'dtwid'. Good call, I would agree on that. I probably haven't played as many megawads as the next Doom player by count, but right away it grabbed my attention for whatever reason.

 

Re: Swim with the Whales/"theme" or "atmosphere" -  Yeah SWTW, as an example, stands out to me for sure. Style of Architecture/geometry would be the first thing I would say, when thinking of it. Levels with "slaughter" type gameplay are fun but like a lot of people say, they can take awhile to complete, of course. I also like interesting contrast and color usage, and names that seem really strange at first glance. It's a part of why someone might d/l the map in the first place, right behind the screenshots... I don't know all the finer details behind every map, but to me swtw is up there with some of my other favorite "slaughter maps" for visual style, like Sunder and Sunlust. (giant cave of honeycombs? like wtf lol awesome).  

 

Epic 2 is a large/expansive megawad that is really good as well, and the community sets, but those are not all slaughtermaps. Mapsets with naming trends like "Doom the Way id Did" can become a common thing, not just for the funny title, after that you might see "Hexen the Way Raven Did" or whatever. Intentional remakes are some of my favorite user content for any game. It tells you quickly what the maps are about. It also helps others find it, and any possible sequels there might be. 

 

Edited October 14, 2017 by reflex17