Animation, skill level and a.i.

[3dioot]

That is really smart =]

Making each weapon start out with a lower default ammount of ammo and ammo boxes that have less ammo! Perfect solution imo.

The reason i dont want to toughen up monsters (as in them being able to deal with more pain) is cause i think it will feel very inconsistent. If something should be kept the same its the things you can do yourself. Wether you raise monster health or lower weapon damage it has the same effect on the game. You will feel something changed that you were accustomed to and learned. Your weapons and how much shots you need to get you out of certain situations. Maybe it wont have the impact i feel it will though. Just a feeling when i try to imagine it. I also wonder how much more skill it takes to pump those few extra bullets in an enemy if it behaves exactly the same as on the previous skill level? To have enemies with 'insane' reaction times would be scarier and harder to deal with imo. Remember i try to look at this from a scaryness viewpoint. Enemies have to pose a threat to be scary.

The cyberdemon in doom was scary for me in the old days cause i thought it was really really hard. ^_^ Not anymore now but i knew back then that id practically always die if i would meet one. (first fps i played and keyboard player). Since then graphics progressed but the most fear inducing thing is still the threat and not the graphical looks of the enemy.

I never really looked into how rtcw dealt with difficulty... I only played it through on normal (i think; either that or hard) and then played it mplayer. Never really went back to try it again on a higher difficulty level. I didnt feel it was hard on normal though. Care to explain what parameter changes were used in rtcw that you didnt like?

3dioot

[dsm]

Firstly: Uhh pardon me, but are you sure that you have understood exactly what I suggested about monsters in higher difficulties or am I misunderstanding you?

I do not want a specific enemy species (e.g. the imp) to have higher hit points on higher skill settings. What I want and hope for is that the type of monsters placed at specific locations will differ on higher settings - this was how the higher difficulty settings very often worked in the old Dooms. An example of how it worked in Doom 2 for instance is that you would have three imps at one location on "Hurt me Plenty" and when you played through the same map on "Ultra Violence" and you reached the spot which used to have three imps, you would find a lone Hell Knight instead. Sometimes they did this, other times they would simply throw in more imps.

So in Doom 3, in order to make the difficulty settings "feel" like in the old Doom, it is my suggestion that instead of putting more enemies in one location on a higher skill setting, you replace some of the monster with a more dangerous species. For instance: There is a Baron of Hell in a room on an easy skill setting, on a hard skill setting, this Baron has been replaced by, say, an Archvile - there's still only one critter, but this critter is of a more challenging and dangerous species.
Because I agree that I don't want to toughen up the monsters on higher skill setting - each monster type should pose roughly the same threat on each skill setting (there would only be a slight difference in the damage they dish out on each skill setting).

As for RtCW: On the easiest skill level the enemies were lousy shots, dealt little damage and, what I really didn't like, made health packs and food give you lots of health - on the hardest skill setting most of the enemies were crack shots (really good at hitting you if you allowed them to shoot at you), dealt more damage and you got less health out of health packs and food.
Not the worst kind of difference in skill setting, but the settings don't really feel much different from one another imo. I played it through on the easiest skill setting and found it challenging but decent (maybe a bit too challenging, judging by the amount of hits I took later in the game), then I played it through on the harder skill settings and I didn't see much difference. I must admit that I liked the fact that they were better shots on the higher skill settings though.

I'm the type of guy who prefer the difficulty setting to determine how large the risk of taking hits is - I'd like to complete a game with a minimum damage taken on at least the easiest skill setting (because then it feels more realistic somehow). I don't want the skill to be determined by how much health recovery you can get, but rather by the opposition itself.

[Tyockell]

skinpack said:

I like shooting monsters. I also like when they shoot back. It's fun.

yeaaa shootin stuff is greeaattt stupid bastards throwin hott balls of shit at me grrrrr......lol yea anyway that games gunna rock the A.I will be fine the shit will look awsome the sounds will be great so its jus gunna be..........great

[nxn]

3dioot said:

Orion,
Repetative value. Ive been thinking about that too. All the enemies that have scripted arrivals would make playing the same level twice incredibly boring. Shoot in that dark corner, lob a grenade inside that airvent, walk with a large circle around that specific window. I hope they counter that by giving monsters paths to walk with a random ofset at the start of the level. This would make things much more exciting. You know a big bad monster is stomping around here somewhere but where exactly is for you to find out. I hope they implement something like this otherwise its replay value will go down the toilet.

I doubt you'll see that, why? What would the great bathroom scene be without the pinky? And how exciting would it be to see nothing come out of those pipes before the bathroom scene. Face it a lot of the monster encounters will be scripted, just like in half life.

I seriously doubt I'll feel like playing the game as many times as I played doom1. But I also know that for that first time I play the game I will think it is the best game ever. It's what I thought with alice and Max Payne, just later did I realize all the wrong things with them.

[999cop]

3dioot: It was only an instant wonder out of my curiosity right after I saw the movie clip. If id was going for realism, with technology is capable to serve, they should've included that but was not a choice to be hesitated to decide.

[doomedout]

First off, we all know that doom 3 is a remake of doom 1, does that mean that albeit the story and scenery, everything is going to be the same? I honestly do not see the similarity between the two. Why has id proclaimed it to be a remake? Same demons? Same ass kicking marine? hmmmmm...
Secondly, will doom 3 be hard? Now doom 1 and Doom 2 skill wise was a breeze, even quake and quake 2, once u finished it there was hardly any replay value other than the mind-blowing(relative to the time) graphics. I just wondered if maybe in doom 3 it will be much harder to frag, and when you are injured maybe you will move more slower. Also cut down the predictability of the game like for example if one dies with a demon coming out of the box, then when you come back to the area, you will probably expect the demon to come out from that area. I know that is expected too much, but I wanted to ask, is the action around the guy relative to his position on the map? What I mean is that will the demons pop out according to his position on the map and not programmed to pop out on only one area? Eliminating this will definately increase the replay value of the game.
Moreover, the demons. Now I don't want to sound too provocative again but the demons in doom 3 again disappoint. Other than Mr. Drolly, the rest long ordinary. This again might be premature because we have not played the game yet, but all of us excited peeps speculate so much prior to the actual release of the game, so all good. I wish the demons would also have some much needed A.I., but I am supremely confident they will because the bots in Quake 3 were damn smart. However, I also get the feeling that doom 3 will rely more on subtlety like shadows and all. As a result, it could be more realistic than any other title id has done. Could I be right? If so, then it would be a dramatic change from the doom 1, which brings me to two last things....
Weapons, now this is perhaps the most debatable topic about doom;s interface. If they include rocket launcher, which they will inevitably will due to its inception in doom 1, will it cut down on the supposed realism in the game? Will there be a conflict with what is real and what is "omg he can do that???" Will there be a BFG? Now this to me is most confusing, because having looked at all the videos of doom 3 really keenly, i get the feeling that there is realism and hardcore action. Could work. I just sincerely hope they don't have the cheesy double barrelled shotgun.
Lastly, the scenery itself. Now judging by the videos I see a strong resemblance of the scenery to Aliens. I hope that is not the case. I also hope that their levels are similar to doom 1, that is spacious rooms with a loota demons, so you can sidestep their asses. If it is continuously confined, then *yawn*. I also reiterate that difficulty must increase. I would like to see him limping when injured, his aim slightly distorted whilst injured, some recoil while using rifles(if they include them) and the machine gun, immense splash damage from plasma gun(LOL) and rocket launcher, carry on items (like armor, health packs) , interchange of weapons, etc.
NOw this is all IMO, some our questions others are suggestions. We can all speculate but i do want ur take on this. :P
>)

[Fredrik]

Secondly, will doom 3 be hard? Now doom 1 and Doom 2 skill wise was a breeze

You clearly never discovered the fifth skill level.

[nxn]

Doomedout! What in heavens name happened to your enter key?

[999cop]

doomedout: You're kidding me if you were trying to say that Nightmare was a piece of cake to you. Not even Doomgods were that good enough to beat them all successfully at their first tries.

dsm: Increased amount of/replaced with tougher demons W/ less ammunition for UV or NM skill level != Balance of gameplay, at least not entirely as far as I'm concerned. So far we've seen the character has faced up against only one monster per time, we don't know how many monsters can be displayed on the screen at the same time the most yet.(?) Back to the original Doom series, we might be able to screw the rest of the enemies due to limited ammos in the level and run straight to the exit to complete the mission. Now, Doom 3 is totally a different world. The velocity of the marine is back to regular speed. You cannot just chicken out and avoid them, generally. I find it seems pretty hard to get away from the demons, for instance, the imp apparently seems very offensive and annoying getting in your way. Unless you clear him up, otherwise, it is very obvious that you cannot escape that easily.

By the way, I really wish demons-respawn feature will be back once again, in my humble opinion.

[dsm]

About id's games "being too easy": I find it amusing how people these days want games to be damn impossible to beat. Now, people have been bitching about RtCW supposedly "being too damn easy". ExCUSE me, but I happen to think that RtCW gets too frustratingly hard in some situations. Try fucking playing the games, aiming at not getting hit a single time - now THAT's fucking challenging!
I tried MoH once, and I quickly decided that the game sucked because it fucking takes too many reloaded games to get out of the later levels alive - simply too damn difficult for my tastes. I want a game which is piss easy in the easiest skill setting(s) and a decent challenge on harder settings (but for Pete's sake, NOT frustratingly difficult like most non-id games out there).

I feel that, while RtCW was perfect throughout most of the game in terms of difficulty, I just found it too annoying in the last three levels or so.

And you're saying that Doom 2's famed double-barreled shotgun is cheesy??? Wtf is your major malfunction? I must say that I'm impressed that you have the nerve to diss one of id's by far most popular weapons EVER.
And you also dislike the Aliens theme??? DIE!!! In case you didn't know, the original Doom was all about the similarity to Aliens. For fuck's sake, id MADE Doom with Aliens in mind - that's one major reason why Doom was such a huge success. id leaving out the Aliens aspect in Doom 3 would be a sure-fire way to kick themselves in the balls when it comes to a rather large part of the community.

And no, we don't want no fucking annoying handicaps when wounded - it just kills the fun factor

[Fredrik]

Demons should respawn on all skill levels. Like, you shoot them down, and they wake up again after half a minute. Yeh.

[Fredrik]

the original Doom was all about the similarity to Aliens

I know this is out of context of what you were saying, but I don't think Doom was "all" about similarity to Aliens.

[dsm]

Fredrik said:

Demons should respawn on all skill levels. Like, you shoot them down, and they wake up again after half a minute. Yeh.

No, that should be a console command - I'd hate to have a skill setting that I never beat (I never beat nightmare because I hated playing in that skill so much that it just killed the fun). It still frustrates me that there's a skill setting in Doom that I haven't beaten.
No, make respawning an option, but please, don't make it default in Nightmare, pleeaaaaase. I want a nightmare skill where I can allow myself some time to go back and look for ammo/health leftovers without knowing that it'll kill my chances of successfully beating the level.

[999cop]

Make demons respawn as default, set demons-respawn feature as an option.

It might have had frustrated you, but it seemed the most incredibly awesome idea beyond anything I've ever seen throughout FPS industry. Besides, there's a lot of Compet-N guys have beaten them, and I'm sure they find Nightmare was always as fun as they used to think it was.

[GS-1719]

I'd like to see respawning - but only in the Hell maps, and across all skill levels.

[AirRaid]

bigbadgangsta said:

Let me state this...one word replies are a no-no here. k?

Heh.





...just kidding. From what I've seen in the vids, the AI looks fine to me... And some people are saying that Demons and Zombies are pretty stupid - fair enough, for the lower enemies, but the higher guys like Hell Knights, Revenants, things that were actually made/trained to fight, should know how to.

[3dioot]

I understand you dsm. =] Im not saying they shouldnt do that. I just dont think they will. As other people allready said monster placement is a much bigger deal with d3 then it was with d1/2. Its no longer a matter of deciding wether you want 3 or 10 imps on that huge open square that represents some grass or whatever. The monsters are being staged much, much more consciously. In regards to their surroundings AND the lights. So imho I just dont think they will do it that way. And yes; i do think that especially in d3 it will warrant a lot of extra work unless if they do it that way unless they lower their quality and monster placement will become more random. Also i dont think that its important for d3 to 'feel' like the old doom especially in regard to skill level. There are a few things that made the original dooms great. They picked those out and use that as their design 'rules' for a -new- game; d3.

'I don't want the skill to be determined by how much health recovery you can get, but rather by the opposition itself.'

I fully agree on that though =]

Orion; yeah i know. Im not suggesting they should diss all the scripted parts =] I think they will be cool and very atmospheric. I do think you can mix and match and create a healthy balance though. Imho half life felt a bit too scripted. I never felt the urge to just jump into the single player part to kill some cool monsters just because it was so damn hard. (and there were enough opponents i would have loved to fight again) Unless i had made a specific save to jump back to an action filled spot i had to go through lots of level loading and scripted sequences for a bit of action. I do hope d3 will be a bit more approachable for a 'quickie' even in sp.

999cop, damn thats a hard line to interpret correctly. ^_^ From as far as i get you i think you mean that its not even something that should be discussed? In a game this realistic and graphics intensive you need a hand punching the buttons period? =] Difference of opinion then although i wouldnt mind a nice hand either. It just doesnt bother me or jump out to me that there isnt one right now. Neither would i mind if it would be like that when its gold.

Doomedout, on the similarity. Doom was groundbraking in the graphics department and based on instilling fear. Never before was a game so immersive and truly scary. THAT is the biggest thing that joins the two together (the new and the old). Part of id deciding to do d3 NOW is because they just made this giant step with their newest engine. The new doom will wow again. The suspension of disbelief will be held up hugely because noone ever saw graphics like this before. Apart from that the story will be mostly the same just better and more appearant in the game.

On monsters popping out relative to you or to the map. It will be relative to the map and yes thats a 'concern' to me too. =]

On demon design. I partly agree with you. I do think we wont be dissapointed though. You saw drooly so i quess you saw the one refered to as the bird demon as well? Thats IS doom and hellish as well. (my favourite is bird demon and then drooly) Im not worried about that. Even if the other 'demons' are less fitting (the new pinky is quite the turnoff for me) they are still made extremely well so i think they wont be hard to accept. All the models are still of exceptionall quality and very well animated.

Neither do i worry about the weapons. They have 'real life' physiques in there that make characters react to bullet impacts and ragdoll physiques when they die. None of the weapons will look out of place. they wont let them =] I personally look forward to the rl because it will be the first time in fps history you will see monsters flying, smacking into walls or other things and then falling to the ground realistically. No quick graphical hack by making them 'gib'. I cant wait to see that.

Surroundings. It wont be open and spacy and you wont be able to sidestep and make easy kills. Each monster will be hard, challenging and in your face. There is mentioning of outdoor area's but it still wont alter the new way doom3 plays. Sorry about that. On making it harder. Im not for handicapping the player like you are. I personally think that sucks. It will destroy the immersiveness. I want direct and full controll all the way untill i die. I want to feel in controll. Not some stupid handicap code that decides to fuck with my aiming. Im all for semi realistic weapons that jump up and have limited ranges. But nothing that interfers with my direct controll. (goes for walking speed too)

Hey dsm again ^_^
Easy there. I like a hard game. And yes i found rtcw easy. Live with it, im not the only one. If the game isnt hard it aint scary. And whats it to you if the last skill level is above what you can take. Then that skill level wont be for you. Other people will appreciate it. Or is it an ego matter that you cant beat games on their highest skill level? If so thats rather silly imo.

And i can understand people will dislike finding the same double barreled sawed of back in d3. I loved the weapon in the original dooms. Its my favourite but.. doom 3 is a new game. I do think it will be included but simply in a new jacket. Like the single shotty. Everyone who watched the e3 video saw it looked more like q2's shotgun. Fitting to the surroundings and the time period the game is playing in. I dont object to that at all. In fact i think its neccesary and im all for it.

I dont dislike the aliens theme but to be honest i dont think it has to play that big a role. The surroundings practically beg for an aliens atmosphere but thats about as far as it has to go imho. As some other people said aswell the cyborgian aspect isnt really nessecary anymore either. I like hell straight on. More in the form of drooleys and bird demons =] I cant really explain the cyborgain aspect either. Hell has some scientists working 24/7 creating monsters. Pinkey's were former uac's guard dogs? =] You need to fantasize to fit em in. Some people said the new imp looked like an alien. In the close up screenshot i can see where that comes from and it might feel a bit out of place. Thankfully its behaviour covers that up but that's one of the things i can understand. So i can understand it aswell if people feel that aliens type stuff doesnt have to play that big a role =]

Frederik; me neither actually. I do read some things about it. Maybe its in some of the original design docs (that they didnt keep themselves to anyway).

Dsm,
So i was right: "It still frustrates me that there's a skill setting in Doom that I haven't beaten." I never beat that too cause i thought it was silly as hell =] I want to feel like a winner when i kill a monster. Especially if it was hard. Them getting up again is boring removes the reward of killing them in the first place. I get speedrun ideas then. :\ Still i dont mind that its there and it amuses me there are people that played on it. Respect to you all ^_^

AirRaid,
Agree (oops was that one word) ;)


3dioot

[999cop]

Basically I was saying there would have been no doubts about whether the hand motions should be there or it if technology serves in time. It just bothers me that the hands won't be shown if this game is trying to archieve to be as realistic as possible ^_^

[dsm]

Just a short sidestep: I'm just curious, what is it that people find so easy about RtCW? Can you beat the game without taking a single hit? If you can, then you have my utmost respect.

[999cop]

I find Rtcw was extremely hard for me at any kind of skill level......that I have the game running at 2, 3 FPS on my comp o.o

[doomedout]

Dsm, relax dude, this forum is to communicate ur opinions and to exchange views, NOT TO DELIBERATE UR OPINION, u cannot force ur views on me and likewise i cannot do the same
Having said that, no i did not say i disliked the alien theme, what i said was that it should not be continuous. If it is then it will border on monotony. Another thing, my favorite gun in doom was the shotgun until the infamous db shotgun replaced it, reason i call it cheesy is that it was so widely used and so easy to frag....
maybe handicaps will limit the immersiveness, so i agree we can leave that out, what about leaning and crouching?
anyhow...
i hope that cools dsm down...LOL
wouldn't it be cool if u were in a large spacious room or outside with the doom3 engine kicking in?

[dsm]

doomedout said:

Dsm, relax dude, this forum is to communicate ur opinions and to exchange views, NOT TO DELIBERATE UR OPINION, u cannot force ur views on me and likewise i cannot do the same
Having said that, no i did not say i disliked the alien theme, what i said was that it should not be continuous. If it is then it will border on monotony. Another thing, my favorite gun in doom was the shotgun until the infamous db shotgun replaced it, reason i call it cheesy is that it was so widely used and so easy to frag....
maybe handicaps will limit the immersiveness, so i agree we can leave that out, what about leaning and crouching?
anyhow...
i hope that cools dsm down...LOL
wouldn't it be cool if u were in a large spacious room or outside with the doom3 engine kicking in?

I kinda spoke on behalf of most other doomers here, plus, your previous comments about Doom don't put you in a particularly good light, which automatically make people, including me, turn on their "no-tolerance mode".

Continuous aliens theme - got it. I don't think the theme will continue to be Aliens all the way - we're going to Hell, remember? And there will be outdoor areas afaik.

I don't think you'll be lucky to have id keep the double-barreled shotgun out of Doom 3. The double-barrel shotty is one of the far most popular weapons from any FPS, so it's pretty much a given that id will include it. id would begin to receive hate mail if they left that one out. Sorry, but you're on your own here.
And besides, you're talking about multiplayer, Doom 3 is going to be a primarily sp game, which means that the doublebarreled shotgun will be much better suited to be in the game. That doesn't mean that there won't be mp, but remember, the game is focused on sp (frankly, I'd have preferred that they left out dm and made coop the only available mp mode instead).

[doomedout]

dsm can u change my title and i will be a good boy

[dsm]

Sorry, changing titles is not for me to do.

As a moderator, I can edit/delete other people's posts within this forum, the D3 tech forum and the fan fics/pics forum, I can delete whole threads, move them to other forums or post hell them.

But messing with people's account (including changing their titles) is out of reach for me - I believe only the Admins can do that.

[Dark-tenshi]

One aspect that made double-barreled shotgun such a great weapon.
The ability to take down 2-4 weak enemy (Zombieman,Shotgun Dude,Imp) with only 1-2 shots.The moment that multiple enemys down at the exact same time,always make me think "Woah!,that`s great"

I don`t know if i will get this nostaglia feel in DOOM3 or not.

[Lord FlatHead]

In cases of appalling stupidity I won't hesitate to ban people, either. (proof)

[doomedout]

LOL lord flathead LOL, LOL nice music

go to projectdoom.com and hear the remake of doom 1 knee deep in the dead last mission's song...its done so good...i hope mr trent reznor can create the same and add the same atmospheric music that chilled us all in quake 1...
check out that remix in the meantime(not by NIN man btw)