Does DEHACKED become convenient and logical if you spend enough time learning it?

[Obsidian]

Well, I was considering making some tutorials at some point in the future. Probably in the new year when I have some peace of mind.

[Urthar]

12 hours ago, EarthQuake said:

 

Of course, but you will probably want to be as verbose as possible when writing a patch by hand in order to stay organized. And yes, WhackEd has a configuration for Boom extensions, but not MBF/Eternity/ZDaemon stuff.

The verison I used has MBF and ZDaemon stuff:

 

 

[EarthQuake]

2 hours ago, Urthar said:

The verison I used has MBF and ZDaemon stuff:

 

 

D:

 

Well, in my defense, I've been away for a godawful amount of time. That's fantastic news, though.

[kb1]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:50 PM, Linguica said:

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand DeHackEd. The interface is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of low-level programming most of the features will go over a typical user's head. There's also the program's usage-agnostic outlook, which is deftly woven into the UI- its frame table draws heavily from Microsoft Excel, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these tools, to realise they're not just useful- they something deep about the GAME. As a consequence people who dislike DeHackEd truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn’t appreciate, for instance, the purity in allowing only certain frames in the table to have code pointers attached, which is itself a cryptic reference to the nature of the executable patching and size of the C data structures. I’m smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated GZDoom simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as ACE Team's genius coding unfolds itself in BATMAN.DEH. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a MBF BEX code pointer dedicated to me. And no, you cannot see it. It’s for the ladies’ eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they’re within 5 D2All UV-Speed seconds of my own (preferably higher) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎

Heh. And, you must be referring to A_Mushroom, which does, in fact, kick ass!

 

A new DeHacked could alleviate a lot of this, by building a big interface around the issues, effectively hiding the complexities. But, as you mention so eloquently, DeHacked is built that way on purpose. Its bare-metal approach gives you ultimate power by providing the tables as-is. To the programmer mind, direct access *is* the simple approach, whereas a system that managed getting the next free frame behind-the-scenes might be more appealing to the TC author. Until it suddenly runs out of frames, that is.

[printz]

Yeah, Dehacked is really intuitive. I never had difficulty understanding it. The interface is super user friendly. It's just that functionality is limited, but if you can also change sprites (even in vanilla, see an old Doomworld tutorial about it, I don't remember the link!), you get even more partial-conversion freedom!

Edited December 19, 2017 by printz

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, kb1 said:

Heh. And, you must be referring to A_Mushroom, which does, in fact, kick ass!

 

A new DeHacked could alleviate a lot of this, by building a big interface around the issues, effectively hiding the complexities. But, as you mention so eloquently, DeHacked is built that way on purpose. Its bare-metal approach gives you ultimate power by providing the tables as-is. To the programmer mind, direct access *is* the simple approach, whereas a system that managed getting the next free frame behind-the-scenes might be more appealing to the TC author. Until it suddenly runs out of frames, that is.

He... uhh... very much isn't. Swoosh.

In fact nothing he said is something you should have agreed with. At all.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Edward850

[Da Werecat]

I entertained a thought about how you could abstract away vanilla DEHACKED's limitations specifically. Two counters: how many frames have left, and how many codepointer frames have left. All the linking is being done under the hood.

 

Without codepointers having to stay where they were, DEHACKED is pretty intuitive and the table can stay very tidy and organized most of the time. But that one limitation can ruin everything and turn the "code" into the worst kind of spaghetti.

 

Solving it by abstraction would require an additional file being saved - it would store frame names, at the very least, unless I'm missing some elegant way to deal with frame references otherwise. Another problem is - Doom has some hardcoded shit that is likely to throw a monkey wrench into the attempts to automate the process of assigning the frames.

[kb1]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

He... uhh... very much isn't. Swoosh.

In fact nothing he said is something you should have agreed with. At all.

Hmm. I remember reading something to the effect that A_Mushroom was build by Lee, by request. I'd say "Don't quote me", but you already did :)

 

As for the rest of the post, there's a valid message, obscured with parody and humorous sarcasm. I detect no true ill-will that I need to disagree with. No bullet list, this time - it stands on its own.

[Linguica]

A_Mushroom was in fact coded by Lee Killough on my behalf, because at some point I made a throwaway comment on how I wished people would code in bigger and more dramatic effects, like a mushroom cloud explosion. I didn't specifically "request" it, however.

[Arctangent]

1 hour ago, kb1 said:

As for the rest of the post, there's a valid message, obscured with parody and humorous sarcasm. I detect no true ill-will that I need to disagree with. No bullet list, this time - it stands on its own.

[kb1]

3 hours ago, Linguica said:

A_Mushroom was in fact coded by Lee Killough on my behalf, because at some point I made a throwaway comment on how I wished people would code in bigger and more dramatic effects, like a mushroom cloud explosion. I didn't specifically "request" it, however.

Ah - he made the code from a simple comment like that? That's kinda cool. I wasn't around at the time, but, from what I've read, I get the feeling that, at some point, Lee was really trying to do his best to please everyone. I think that plan eventually got the best of him, which is a shame. Many people freak out over his coding style, but he really did bring a lot to Doom. Here's to you, Lee!

 

2 hours ago, Arctangent said:

Hmmm.

 

Screwdriver Pickle Imp.

Screwdriver Imp Pickle.

Pickle Screwdriver Imp.

Pickle Imp Screwdriver.

Imp Screwdriver Pickle.

Imp Pickle Screwdriver...

Good Big Buds.

Good Buds Big.

Big Good Buds.

Big Buds Good.

Buds Big Good.

Buds Good Big...

 

Funny pic? What'd I miss? Should I ask?

 

[Empyre]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pickle+rick

Edited December 20, 2017 by Empyre

[Edward850]

If he doesn't know what Pickle Rick is, then he's going to have absolutely zero idea what Linguica's post was actually about.

[kb1]

Yep, ignorance really is bliss, apparently :)

I just watched "Rick and Morty S03E03 - Pickle Rick". Pretty funny. Much less frightening than I was expecting :)

[printz]

I didn't even realize @Linguica was being sarcastic until he said "GAME" in upper case... let alone it being a reference to some cartoon.

 

23 hours ago, Da Werecat said:

I entertained a thought about how you could abstract away vanilla DEHACKED's limitations specifically. Two counters: how many frames have left, and how many codepointer frames have left. All the linking is being done under the hood.

 

That would mostly only be useful when starting TCs from scratch. Or for enhancing Doom 1 with new stuff. Otherwise you still have to look at the Decorate-like definitions of other monsters and decide which frames and things to exchange.

Edited December 21, 2017 by printz

[Da Werecat]

5 minutes ago, printz said:

That would mostly only be useful when starting TCs from scratch.

That was the idea.

 

Not that I'd want to make a vanilla TC. Would be a bit too much for me.

[kb1]

What would make it difficult is how it handled re-loading an old DeHacked script. If it didn't handle old scripts seamlessly and identically, it would add confusion, I think.

[Gez]

2 hours ago, printz said:

I didn't even realize @Linguica was being sarcastic until he said "GAME" in upper case... let alone it being a reference to some cartoon.

It's not directly a reference to a cartoon, but to some Internet idiot's ravings about the cartoon.

 

And I guessed it was a copypasta at the mention of "very high IQ" and "very subtle interface".

[Arctangent]

Honestly, I was like 70% sure it was the copy-pasta just from the first three words, and knew it was by the next three.

[Fonze]

Oh c'mon people, any argument that starts with the thought:

 

On 12/16/2017 at 1:50 PM, Linguica said:

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand DeHackEd.

 

and concludes said thought with:

 

On 12/16/2017 at 1:50 PM, Linguica said:

As a consequence people who dislike DeHackEd truly ARE idiots-

can't be taken seriously. And given Ling's MO it should have been an obvious parody ;p 

 

Tbh though i didnt know where it was from, but it's source is not at all a surprise. Apparently understanding art in moving-pictures-with-sound form requires a very high IQ, but contradiction will fly straight over our heads... if a show of missed comedic opportunities can count as art. No wonder that post became a meme.

 

In a dick-measuring contest to understand who appreciates every millisecond of something the most, they say jump you say how high.

[Bauul]

In fairness, the copy-pasta that Ling used is pretty recent.  If you don't frequent Rick and Morty related areas of the Internet, you might not know about it.

 

On the subject: Yes Dehacked does make sense if you learn it.  When I first got into Doom modding as a 12 year old I had far more success with Dehacked projects than I did with the other editors of the time like DEU.   I once created a whole mod where zombies went through stages, e.g. losing an arm, or losing a leg.  Never did create the sprites for it, but the coding worked perfectly.