Deathmatch Map tips?

[HeyItsDuke]

Any tips on how to make a deathmatch map more interesting? specifically how to make open areas more interesting?

Edited February 4, 2018 by V0idH0und

[Decay]

read this if you haven't yet

 

Interesting is subjective. What is interesting for you may be horrific for others, what is interesting for some may be extremely bland for you. The best advice you can get as a dm mapper is playing a plethora of dm wads to see what's been done, what's out there, what plays well, and then balancing it between what you want to make and play versus what you think others would enjoy as well (who is your audience)

 

In terms of making open areas more interesting, close them up and/or add obstacles/cover

 

[Marcaek]

If you have a map started, it would be helpful to post it so people can comment.

 

General advice: play DM more to get a feel for how existing DM maps work. It'll help you understand way better than reading posts about the subject alone.

[HeyItsDuke]

1 hour ago, Marcaek said:

If you have a map started, it would be helpful to post it so people can comment.

 

General advice: play DM more to get a feel for how existing DM maps work. It'll help you understand way better than reading posts about the subject alone.

Arena style map with some underground tunnels, the texturing theme is inspired by Doom 64 and Quake.

[HeyItsDuke]

@Decay Quoting you from the thread you linked me to.

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

First and foremost I will say right now mapping for CTF is not easy. Getting your maps liked and played with any sort of regularity takes an incredible amount of effort, time, and, unfortunately, popularity. CTF players are extremely picky about maps, and any little nuance that is negatively noticed will doom the map to oblivion and more than likely subject the author to endless ridicule.

That's comforting... good thing this is a deathmatch centered map.

 

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Ask yourself the following questions when aiming for a port
Do you require one or more of the following: DECORATE, 3D Floors, Dynamic Lights, New Actors, Classes, Complex Scripts, Extensive ACS support, PK3 or PK7 support, UDMF support, Portals, Open GL, extensive audio file type support, interchangeable texture and flat usage?

I know I need UDMF, I will probably not need new actors, not sure about the rest yet.

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you need Zandronum.

My favorite port!

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Do you want the map to work on ALL the ports?

 

That would be cool! but probably not, I'm making this map for a TC.

 

1 hour ago, Decay said:

Do you want to make an invasion-style cooperative map or a survival challenge? Probably your best bet is to aim for ZD or Zan.
 

 

I would love to support invasion, but maybe on another map, this one's pretty much DM only.

 

I know Freelook will be supported, but no jumping.

 

[HeyItsDuke]

Well thanks @Decay and @Marcaek! I very much appreciate it!

Edited February 5, 2018 by V0idH0und

[Decay]

23 hours ago, V0idH0und said:

That's comforting... good thing this is a deathmatch centered map.

"Getting your maps liked and played with any sort of regularity takes an incredible amount of effort, time, and, unfortunately, popularity." still applies to DM. Players are just just less picky and a bad aspect will not doom the map to oblivion like in CTF. Regardless, that is more or less a warning for people who think getting into CTF mapping is a good idea.

 

The main things I wanted you to take away from the post was 1) the flags bit (making sure you have a clear goal and consistency because this will determine how the map is structured (jumping or crouching etc) 2) some of the tips in basics and feedback. But overall the most important advice, seriously, is playing a lot and often.

[Doomkid]

If you're a ZandFan I must recommend checking out Don't be a Bitch and Aeon DM. Excellent DM turf.

 

Old school fools such as myself are more likely to suggest Pyrrhic, EXEC and dweller2. Again, excellent turf, but much more similar to Old Doom, feels more like an extension of the source material than a full re-vamp like many of the good Zand wads out there.

 

Of course there's more good stuff out there but I don't want to overwhelm you, this covers a wide range of the 'dm mapping spectrum' and should provide plenty of great examples depending on what sort of gameplay/aesthetic you're looking for. Hope this helps.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Doomkid

[Elie.T.Zerg]

Check Greenwar its one good classic dm reference i guess.

[40oz]

On 2/3/2018 at 4:56 PM, V0idH0und said:

Any tips on how to make a deathmatch map more interesting? specifically how to make open areas more interesting?

I think you're not really asking yourself the right question. A deathmatch map is more or less a vehicle that allows players to excercise their ability to kill targets. DM maps are better respected for their longevity, rather piquing one's interest. A really cool map with a unique gimmick might be interesting to check out, but ultimately people prefer maps that give them the resources to try methods and strategies.

 

There's some things I could tell you that will absolutely kill your map that won't be too detrimental for a Single player map. Things like too many narrow corridors, a disconnected design that makes it too complicated to find weapons and find each other, lighting that makes it too dark to see where you're going or where the enemies are, bland texture themes that make it difficult to navigate, or extraneous detail that interrupts fluid movement in combat.

 

In order to be a better deathmatch level designer, the bottom line is you'll have to play a lot of FFA and develop a real sensitivity to what it is about the levels you're playing that make them more fun or less fun. When you do find that something is fun or not fun, you're going to want to be able to articulate what it is that makes it fun or not fun and how the map could be altered to fix that. Eventually you'll start noticing patterns like what guns people prefer, what places people will choose to fight in, etc. 

 

Most people prioritize the ability to move fluidly throughout the map as being most important, and probably most easy to fuck up. So if this is something you are new to, I'd highly recommend testing your map by running in figure eights around the map as fast as you can, running backwards, circling and drifting around while trying to occupy the largest plane of space. If you feel yourself colliding into walls or things unexpectedly, that can mean certain death during an FFA game and a player might blame your map for that. Once you feel you can control your player naturally while using the least attention to your surroundings, that's usually a good start. But I think it's pretty much impossible to anticipate anything that could possibly go wrong without overthinking it and causing more problems along the way. So you're just going to need to test it with other people and see what happens if you're interested in developing it further.

[Memfis]

Make really really really many maps. One in a thousand will randomly work and become known.

[Pegleg]

I'm not a deathmatch player (I prefer the single player experience), but what I can contribute to the conversation is that I have read (in more than one spot) that Dwango 5 Map 01 is considered by some (perhaps many) to be the pinnacle of the deathmatch experience in Doom. So, play D5M1. Load it in an editor. See what makes the level tick and learn from it.

 

Then, just play lots and lots of deathmatch maps (those that are well-regarded, those less well-regarded, and those that have been collectively set on fire) so you can what works, what doesn't work, and how good and bad maps feel, flow, and play.

[Decay]

30 minutes ago, Pegleg said:

I'm not a deathmatch player (I prefer the single player experience), but what I can contribute to the conversation is that I have read (in more than one spot) that Dwango 5 Map 01 is considered by some (perhaps many) to be the pinnacle of the deathmatch experience in Doom. So, play D5M1. Load it in an editor. See what makes the level tick and learn from it.

maybe in 1995 but otherwise d5m1 is a dreary, oversized, boring ass piece of shit that is only played by people who have been around forever. The only reason it holds on is because of insistence on playing it from the older crowd who cling to it longing for older years, which in turn keeps new people playing it. People grind it out because its the only thing some stalwarts will play. This is some of the worst dm mapping advice you can give.

[Pegleg]

10 minutes ago, Decay said:

maybe in 1995 but otherwise d5m1 is a dreary, oversized, boring ass piece of shit that is only played by people who have been around forever. The only reason it holds on is because of insistence on playing it from the older crowd who cling to it longing for older years, which in turn keeps new people playing it. People grind it out because its the only thing some stalwarts will play. This is some of the worst dm mapping advice you can give.

As I said, not a deathmatch player. But thank you for responding with a coherent answer as to why you consider the level to be poor and not just saying, "That was some of the worst advice anyone could ever give." (Or something in that vein.) I would imagine there are those who would disagree, but perhaps, as you said, they're all the deathmatch old guard.

 

Regardless, I don't think my second piece of advice is bad. It's very similar to the advice you gave further up in the thread. Ultimately, if @V0idH0und wants a better idea of how to make his deathmatch maps interesting, he/she needs to play a wide variety of them, and not just the ones that are held up as the epic legends of deathmatch map-making, but the bad ones, too.