Question about Pain Elemental's Lost Soul limit

[KVELLER]

So I know vanilla Doom II prevented Pain Elementals from spawning Lost Souls if there already was a certain amount of them in the level, but what about limit removing? And Boom compatible?

[42PercentHealth]

Limit removing keeps the 21-LS limit. Boom removes it.

 

"Limit removing" was intended to remove limits imposed on mappers by vanilla Doom's quirky engine (you know, visplane and sprite limits, etc.). I think it seeks to maintain compatibility with vanilla demos, which is why it still limits the lost souls.

[Bauul]

"Limit-removing" is a description of a minimum source port capability needed to run a particular map. It's doesn't dictate anything about gameplay features like Lost Soul limits.

 

In other words, you play a limit-removing map in GZDoom and there's no limit to Lost Souls. You play it in Crispy and there is (AFAIK). 

[galileo31dos01]

PrBoom+ has an option to turn on the lost souls limit in Setup > Doom compatibility. I'm assuming Boom.exe also had this option, I've never explored its configuration.

 

Chocolate and Crispy Doom stay with the limit automatically. 

 

ZDoom has to have an option somewhere. 

[42PercentHealth]

3 hours ago, Bauul said:

In other words, you play a limit-removing map in GZDoom and there's no limit to Lost Souls. You play it in Crispy and there is (AFAIK). 

In GZDoom it's an option... if you were to play a limit-removing map in "Doom (Strict)" compatibility mode, the limit would exist. Also, if you set that particular to "yes" in the compatibility options, it would also exist.

 

Crispy, on the other hand, is a limit-removing source port only. It replicates all the gameplay behavior of vanilla Doom, allows for maps to be played which exceed vanilla limitations, but does not allow for Boom or ZDoom maps to be played. Also, there is no option to turn off the lost soul limit. It's just vanilla Doom with support for some extra maps.

 

Crispy does a FAR better job at replicating vanilla gameplay behavior than GZDoom does though, even if you use strict Doom compatibility.

[Bauul]

11 hours ago, 42PercentHealth said:

Crispy, on the other hand, is a limit-removing source port only. It replicates all the gameplay behavior of vanilla Doom,

Except, you know, the support for jumping, mirrored sprites, HUD changes, higher resolution, vertical freelook, translucency, non-infinite-height, crosshairs and all the other things it adds.

 

Although looking through the change-log, it does seem that raising the Lost Soul limit isn't mentioned.

[fabian]

1 hour ago, Bauul said:

Except, you know, the support for jumping, mirrored sprites, HUD changes, higher resolution, vertical freelook, translucency, non-infinite-height, crosshairs and all the other things it adds.

 

All these features are strictly optional and if you leave them disabled in the menu, you pretty much get the authentic Vanilla experience. So, IMHO @42PercentHealth still stands true with what he posted.

 

1 hour ago, Bauul said:

Although looking through the change-log, it does seem that raising the Lost Soul limit isn't mentioned.

 

No, this would be a demo breaking change without any chance for a demo-safe implementation.

[Gez]

"limit-removing" means removing mapping limits, not gameplay limits. You can make a map with more than 21 lost souls in it in vanilla; the lost soul limiter isn't a technical limitation.

 

And yeah, messing with the lost soul limit would risk destroying demo sync in maps with pain elementals. If a demo is recorded in which a pain elemental fails to spawn a lost soul because of that limit, and is then played back on a port where the limit is disabled, the lost soul will spawn and wreck demo sync from then on.

[Bauul]

16 hours ago, fabian said:

All these features are strictly optional and if you leave them disabled in the menu, you pretty much get the authentic Vanilla experience.

Of course. I just meant 42 Percent seemed to be underselling Crispy. It's not just Chocolate + limit-removing, it does a lot more cool stuff too (if you want it to).

 

But either way we're drifting off topic. Point is that "Lost Soul limits" and "Limit removing" aren't directly comparable terms. One is a source port feature, the other is a map format.  

[42PercentHealth]

Ah, I was not aware that Crispy had all those features. Most of them are not demo-breaking though... only jumping, lack of inf. height, and probably freelook (since it usually comes with free-aim). Still, never woulda guessed that Crispy supported any of that stuff.

[therektafire]

On 2/10/2018 at 10:59 AM, 42PercentHealth said:

Limit removing keeps the 21-LS limit. Boom removes it.

 

"Limit removing" was intended to remove limits imposed on mappers by vanilla Doom's quirky engine (you know, visplane and sprite limits, etc.). I think it seeks to maintain compatibility with vanilla demos, which is why it still limits the lost souls.

*Cough* someone should have told me about that a few months ago when I didn't know as much about mapping and I made that one map for pigeon 2 :'D

[DeletedAccount]

On 2/11/2018 at 1:25 PM, Bauul said:

Except, you know, the support for jumping, mirrored sprites, HUD changes, higher resolution, vertical freelook, translucency, non-infinite-height, crosshairs and all the other things it adds.

 

Although looking through the change-log, it does seem that raising the Lost Soul limit isn't mentioned.

Also, all these non Vanilla features are strictly disabled while recording demos, so Crispy definately behaves closer to Vanilla when compared to GZDoom even in its Doom (Strict) compatibilty.