csDoom Problems

I think the conception that no-one has left is wholly wrong. I know of a _lot_ of people who have left becuase of the bad attitude from others. They don't necessary make an update on their website to say as much. yes, there are a few hard-core people who don't, but they are usually into the cowardly flaming. The fact is that this attitude adds heavyly on people's minds when they decide what they do in their spare time. If you work 9-5 and are give the choice between working on a project that someone with appreciate or whats going to be shoot down because someone wasn't exactly what they preceived, what would you do? Anyone who has worked in the doom community has to have a high tolerance level for crap from other people - because its so bad. People don't behave like this to each other and person, so why do we do it on the net. No guts is the answer for most people. FWIW, the doom community was around long before Doomworld and the attitude was much better before the source port wars. its time to get a grip people - if you don't see that people have left because of it, you will never see it.

Total agreemnet with Risen. There is one person who has been around and can probably remember how good the community once was.

What are you implying? That because things like cheap flaming are normal we should just say, "oh, so what! nothing is really happening". And your "# of doomers that left the community because of..." statistics don't make you much more sensible. It seems more like you just wanna close your eyes instead of noting which part of each side's argument may make sense and which may be considered rubbish. Things are going on... what need have you to be so distant about it?

Is anyone going to answer my question? How do you create & use your own "face" for the forums?

Big deal. Woo, some people fell out with some other people. That's life, get over it and move on. And yes it is "normal" for arguments, the world would be a better place if it wasn't, but there you go. Personall, I don't care what other people think, I make my Doom stuff primarily for me, not others.

That's not the point. The point is that Fly can obviously no longer be trusted. There's no way I'm going to ever play csDoom now, unless I know with 100% certainty that it doesn't have any more undocumented features like this one.

To counter a previous argument, concerning Outlook Express. There IS a very serious problem with it, in the way it handles Visual Basic attachments. Sure, any e-mail client could get caught by one of these e-mail worms, but have you noticed how they're always targeted at Outlook Express? It handles these VBS attachments VERY VERY poorly. No, it's not Microsoft's fault that people are exploiting this flaw. It IS Microsoft's fault that that flaw is present in the first place.

"Ok people... why the hell would Fly want to abuse having a backdoor, anyway?!?"

Then why would he put it in there? You don't put "features" in your programs if you don't have a use for them.

Hi everybody. Right out of the gate I just want to say that I've only been coming to DW for just about a year and in that time I've noticed a few things. One of which is the constant barrage of insults and put-downs that everyone (including yours truly) throws at each other when something (source port, TC, megawad, single level, etc.) doesn't live up to the standards of the rest of the community. We all find something wrong with everything ("Zan Zan" was too short, "Ninja DooM" is taking too long, "ZDooMGL"always crashes on me, "this asshole used a structure in his level that almost looks a bit like the one I wanted to use in my level... HE SUCKS", and other stupid shit like that), and thats why so many people left. They got tired of the constant bitching and moaning. Has anyone thought to tell the rest of the world why Yoghurt left? Of course not. We all found something else to be bitter about and complain about. Yes, I know I'm leaving myself wide open for ridicule and a possible e-mail bomb, but I'm not through ranting yet. I have a level that I've been working on for just about 4 months and its nowhere close to being finished. I rteally don't think that I want to finish it because there's going to be someone out there that's gonna play it and think, "Holy shit, this sucks raunchy ass!" and is just gonna tear the damn thing apart and say that its the worst level he's ever played. I think that that's why Fly didn't release the source. He probably felt that someone is not going to like something about csDooM, take the source, and just totally fuck him over by releaseing a different version and call it their own. He had every right to put in a backdoor - as long as he wasn't planning to fuck the rest of the players over. It's his project, his baby, his product. I think he was in the right because it's his. He was taking what he felt to be necessary precautions in order to secure the integrity of the port. Everyone's reading too much into this. I've looked at all the comments and all I've seen is people that think Fly is out to get them or extract some sort of revenge out doing what he did. Now I'm finally going to get to the point (YAY!). Who gives a hit what he does? You don't like it, don't download it or use an older version. Like downloading a file from someone you don't know, use your better judgement. Thank you and good night.

You can edit you profile once you have a name & password (by clicking on "create profile" again). Have a 36x36 bmp ready and look for the file upload and send your BMP. Then mail (or otherwise inform) Linguica and tell him you sent a new face, he'll set it for you to choose next time you edit your profile.

Doomworld just presents the facts to do with as you please. I thank Linguica to alerting me about this, personally, but it is NOT his fault that Fly is not trust-worthy. Fly brought this upon himself.

I support what Tom_ (mystican) did. I don't like how he went about it (black-mailing for source code isn't the best way to get source code) but he did the right thing allowing this to come out into the open.

I can get into my profile to edit things with my password and I can use my password to post things on forums but I can't get it to work in here! Does anybody know why?

So what? the man wrote in something that shouldn't be there... lets be perfectly honest, do you think that bill gates doesnt have ways to get around shit in win 98? Uh, yeah, he does... 98% which ppl discoverd in a damn week. You people are just upset that some programmer might have access to your HD and have duped you into downloadin his software. Anyone who can program something like csdoom would be smart enough to add a trojen virus or something if he wanted to do shit to your computers, not a few lines that allow him to pull admin shit on a server USING HIS SOFTWARE. So its unethical, why don't you tar and feather the poor fool, shoot your guns some and go back to whatever the hell you did before the csDoom scandal.

1. If Fly had planned on using this backdoor, I don't believe he would have been foolish enough to have it hosted on SourceForge and release the source. I mean, how stupid would that be? And from what Arioch said, that code was put in there for testing purposes. I believe him. Now if Fly would come out and say that...

2. There is nothing that Fly could do to your hard drive or Windows. I am very experienced in ZDoom and I know this. Don't even try to dispute this with me.

3. Even though this is Fly's project, he still doesn't have any right to put a backdoor like this in. Neither did he have the right to ban anyone people from playing csDoom. They wouldn't have been any trouble to anyone. If they were harassing the server, everyone there could just annoy or ignore them until they left.

4. If #doomroom isn't about Doom, what is it about then? Why is it called doomroom? I'm not asking you to change the name or anything, I'm just curious.

5. If you don't like ANYTHING, don't use it. If you try to convince other people to not use it and they still do, don't get mad at them. It's still their choice.

#doomroom is called that because its a place for doom fans to talk, not necessarily about doom. in fact you can talk about almost anything, although some common topics are reserved for other chans (i.e. location of ports or servers)

Yay! I got my new face pic! Everybody check it out- it's bobbert.gif. :)

Cool, Bobbert, its just that here in the news section you must make another separate account.

Ah....I see...BTW, what's the infoline thing?

It's his "I once heard from an imp..." and my "If guns cause violence, matches cause arson."

Ah.....I thought so, but I wasn't sure, thanks

Having the csdoom source code available to the public will allow for many talented people to enhance the game. It will also allow for scrutiny of this sort. The code was pretty unsecure, but anyone running a server (especially when not making any money while doing it) is always at some level of risk. I'm glad that the backdoor was found, and ripped-out.

1. If Fly had planned on using this backdoor, I don't believe he would have been foolish enough to have it hosted on SourceForge and release the source. I mean, how stupid would that be? And from what Arioch said, that code was put in there for testing purposes. I believe him. Now if Fly would come out and say that..." I don't care what it was there for. If it was there for "testing purposes," then it should have been removed before release. And if it was just missed, then Fly would not have responded the way he did. Also, if it were for testing purposes, then why did Fly not release the source as he did for other versions? Maybe because he was hiding something. In fact, he WAS hiding something.

2. There is nothing that Fly could do to your hard drive or Windows. I am very experienced in ZDoom and I know this. Don't even try to dispute this with me.

That's not the part that's important. It is the FACT that this portion of code WAS left in there, when it clearly should not have been. I don't care if all it does is let Fly type to you when he's not on the server; it is WRONG for that code to be there.

3. Even though this is Fly's project, he still doesn't have any right to put a backdoor like this in. Neither did he have the right to ban anyone people from playing csDoom. They wouldn't have been any trouble to anyone. If they were harassing the server, everyone there could just annoy or ignore them until they left.

I agree. OR it could be (should be) left to the server admin themselves. If the two that were banned were causing trouble, it would be up to the server admin to handle it. But Fly thought that he had the right to go beyond that...he does not.

4. If #doomroom isn't about Doom, what is it about then? Why is it called doomroom? I'm not asking you to change the name or anything, I'm just curious.

DOOM fans talking about stuff. That's why.

5. If you don't like ANYTHING, don't use it. If you try to convince other people to not use it and they still do, don't get mad at them. It's still their choice.

In this case, it's the principle. I don't care about csDOOM because I don't play games online; that's not to say that I dislike the idea of others doing so. In fact, I was very happy to see a client/server source port pop up when it did. But I still believe that what Fly did was wrong.

You have not given us a single reason why what FLY did was wrong. All you say is that fly is wrong, tell us why! The people who support him all have given perfectly good reasons as to why we support him. Your turn, Daggah.

because it SHOULD be obvious. Giving someone UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS to ANYTHING over the internet without their knowledge is wrong, and also probably illegal in some countries (like Nick said, it's a potential violation of privacy.) It does not matter what Fly does with it, and it does not matter if he even actually DOES do something with it. Intentional backdoors are a BAD THING.

Here's an algorithm that a friend came up with: "If I built a house for you, would you want me to have the ability to come and rearrange your furniture any time I wanted?"

NT

"I knew of the backdoor's existence. The backdoor was in there so rcon could be tested in a private test of version 0.6 ... just because it was forgotten about when cleaning the source up for 0.6 beta release, does that mean Fly is a bad person?"

Then why:

- has Fly not stepped forward with this information himself?

- was Fly not first willing to release the source code?

- has he responded in this way (credit to NightFang for the quote): "Of course, I *DO* have to put up with the little mud slinging from Fly messaging me through ICQ and IRC with messages like "Your not as good as me and you can't do it.", "You can't even code teamplay!" and the all famous "LAMER!!!!!". Just to show you the brains behind csDoom."

I know this is suggesting that you are being dishonest, AriocH, and I'm sorry. But given the circumstances I am inclined to not believe these statements.

I don't see what the big deal is. csDoom is poorly programmed anyway. We won't even get into such issues as optimization. In fact, I can honestly say I could program something so much better, but unfortunately (or fortunately) I have a real job. Fly acts like an idiot (I'm not surprised he's 17), and can't program worth a shit. So I don't use csDoom anyway, and this won't affect me at all. Maybe Nightfang can put out a respectable version and I'll give it a whirl.

Why should Fly be able to control what other people do with his port? He has absolutely no right to exert any control over its use. If he doesn't want certain people playing it, then his only option is to not release it. Fly is wrong, okay? Anybody who says otherwise is missing the point entirely. This cannot be an issue of individual perspective; is there any good reason whatsoever why Fly should have done this? It is a matter of principle. It would never have effected me; but it should not have been done. The only arguments offered in Fly's defence have been along the lines of "oh yeah, but it's his project" or even "but he probably wouldn't use it anyway". SO???

WERD! That's what I've been trying to say all along!

Sorry boys, but this discussion is over. Fly is WRONG.

Having been with this project for a good while, I can tell you a few facts you may/may not know.

1) Before all this trouble with tom_ and channel takeovers, Fly has always said he'd release all sources at version 1.0. There was even some talk that the code would be reintegrated back into zdoom.

2) I have often at times felt that Fly was an arrogant SOB, but he has never, EVER, done anything that I felt to be morally wrong. His arrogance is his problem, it alienates his fans. And had you been with us in the IRC channel, you would have seen his struggle with this security hole message thread. Some will never understand, and indeed some folks from #doomroom came in and were publicly humiliating him. Dare I say that I do understand? Dare I say that I agree with most of the kickbans meted out during those hours?

3) He demonstrated the backdoor to me in a private test in which I ran the server. That's how I knew of its existence. I said that it was for testing purposes only, but that's my opinion, and I cannot guarantee the truth of it. It's my opinion, however, so take it or leave it.

4) All of you folks who complain about horrible unoptimised code in csDoom, go fuck off, now, immediately. Find something better to do other than complain about source code you a) will never use and b) will never improve upon.

5) Back doors and what not, have you found ANYTHING which could allow Fly to access your hard drive, or whatever? I don't think so. Not to mention the fact that zdoom would be a very poor interface, heh.

And that's my take on this whole issue.

That may be all well and good, AriocH, and while I don't particularly want to add to the madness of this, I must ask:Why would Fly want to test whether he could use these backdoors to kick people? Why did he use these things for "testing"?

Instead of flaming Fly and guessing why he did what is all flood about I recommend to ask Zoid and Carmack _WHY_ did they released QuakeWorld whith the _SAME_ feature (client whith idSoftware ip had a default rcon permissions)! May be gods can help us?