Doom 4 A Certainty

dethtoll said:
unlike the vast majority of mouth-breathing, unwashed fans, i'd rather not play the same old shit over and over for 14 years.

Quoted for mother fucking truth.

The only real problem with doom 3 was that after a little while, a gray space base starts to look same-y. Setting it on earth could fix that quite easily.

I just hope Raven doesn't make it.

i actually hope they do. quake 4 was loads better than doom 3.

Funny thing:

As I saw it, I considered Doom3's art direction to be more aching towards Quake2 than QuakeIV, and Quake IV's art direction was more aching towards Doom than Quake2.

Granted that Quake2 was designed to be aching towards Doom1, as that was what fans were screaming for back in those days. I remember it particularly well when Quake2 was just getting somewhere and in an interview they said. "Our next game will be more Doom like."

Either way. I liked some things about QuakeIV better than Doom3. But overall I really loved Doom3. In Doom3: Phobos, we've been working on a lot of changes that we think will make the whole experience as good a it can get. We just gotta get it finished is all. :p

that reminds me.

are you guys going to have logs?

if so, please, please, please put in readable text to read along with the audio portion, similar to the [CC] mod (minus the sound radar and other crap i don't need.) if you do this, you will have a very faithful fan. i can't play resurrection of evil because the [cc] mod for it got cancelled, and the mod leader felt so bad about it he sent me $30 to make up for the money i spent on RoE. i don't really care about cutscene conversations and whatnot, but it's just about impossible to play without being able to understand what the logs are saying.

I think a notes section that stores any codes you find would also be handy, ie, you find the janitors log who mentions the code to the officers quarters is, and as soon as you play it it adds the note "Code to officers quarters: 0451" so I don't need to sit through 20 seconds of the janitors ramblings if i forget the code.

Captain Red said:

"Code to officers quarters: 0451"

i c wut u did thar

Captain Red said:

so I don't need to sit through 20 seconds of the janitors ramblings if i forget the code.

Ever considered taking notes yourself?

Dethtoll: We're still discussing how we'll handle that, but we'll do something about it atleast.

kristus said:

Ever considered taking notes yourself?

Are you serious?! Jesus Christ OK yeah let me go get a pen and paper so I can play Doom

Oy vey.

I'm not too excited for Doom 4. RoE was better than D3 because of the action, and Quake 4 was better because of the atmosphere. Maybe it's just that I like "The Future" in 1993 more than "The Future" in 2004.

kristus said:
Ever considered taking notes yourself?

It breaks the game experience. Case in point: Morrowind, which made me writing down a small booklet just to keep track of what I was supposed to do :/

WoW handles it perfectly: a log with a summary of the quest (what to do, where to go, where to return), the original text below it and it keeps track of quest progress (how many mobs you've killed so far etc). And all organised by zone. No need to write down anything.

Doom3's audio logs were annoying, and didn't really add anything. Plus I had to write shit down, in order not to be forced to go through all the audio again. Finding codes to proceed at first glance is nice but sucks if you just have a complete printed list lying next to you. And the Martian friend thing was just outright annoying, requiring me to tab out of the game to look for codes on internet... WTF!!

Finding "security clearances" is much better in that regard. Again: no different then finding keys, just a different dressing-up.

Back to track: Doom3, like Quake2 before it, are not "bad" games. But they just don't have that 'oompf' that makes you want to replay it. Main causes: absence of creative stuff, very linear and the same theme repeating itself.

Didn't buy Quake4 for this reason, and it's very doubtful if I'm ever going for Doom4. Or Rage for that matter :) However I really digged Far-Cry, so I probably pick up the (true) sequel to that one.

I think Q4 sucked. You could loose the whole game if you let the medic die (the one who you are supposed to lead to the harmed soldier), wtf? The linearity was more obvious than in DOOM 3 (or perhaps is because I played it after DOOM 3). I got bored after the map where missiles travel above your head. The atmosphere was good, but everything looked even more scripted than in DOOM 3.

There's no need to completely understand audio logs, what with all those noises and garblings. Numbers are told clearly. Normally, the Marine hasn't got enough time to write down what he hears. Security cabinets aren't needed.

The only thing that I'd ask of both kristus and Doom 4 would be a damned old stupid important AutoMap. Having a PDA would imply having an Automap, but Doom 3 seemingly forgot to include it! What could be more fitting when introducing the PDA into Doom, than to reuse the classic Automap right into the long-awaited Doom sequel in a place where it's plausible? It's even more outrageous, when area maps do exist in Doom 3, at public displays.

Doom 3 and 4 neeed an automap!

Yeah especially if the player could manipulate the automap in case the level did have multiple floors. I'm thinking something along the lines of the map in Metroid Prime for the GameCube, where you can manipulate it, see yourself on the map, and see the other floors above/below you too.

printz said:
There's no need to completely understand audio logs, what with all those noises and garblings. Numbers are told clearly. Normally, the Marine hasn't got enough time to write down what he hears. Security cabinets aren't needed.

What? I'm just asking for the freaking code written down because I don't understand why Doom 3 ripped off System Shock 2 as far as having audio logs, but not as far as to have it's very sensible and practical notes section. Just add it to the objectives: Reading an audio log gives you the objective "Enter infirmary with the code 0616" and once you unlock the door with said code, it goes away. Quite sensible. Quite practical.

mind you, I can't be to hard on Doom 3 not having that as even Bioshock Omitted a notes section. Kind of odd when you think of all the other things that where 'dumbed down' in that game.

And doom 3 was way to linear to justify an auto map. are you honestly telling my you got lost?

printz said:

Normally, the Marine hasn't got enough time to write down what he hears.[/b]

Did you play some other game called Doom3 where you can't stop moving for two seconds to jot down a 3 digit code?

printz said:

AutoMap

Actually, it's quite possible to create an "automap" for Doom3. It'd however mean quite a bit of work. But you can get it done rather well.
There's really great possabilities for how to present it within the GUI feature of Doom3. But like I said, it'd of course be a lot of work, as all the maps of the maps (heh) would have to be hand-crafted. Scripted and all the graphics, and also made integrated to work with the map you're playing. Lots of scripting...

Mordeth said:

It breaks the game experience. Case in point: Morrowind, which made me writing down a small booklet just to keep track of what I was supposed to do :/

I'm of a completely different opinion in that regard. I love making notes when I play games. I hate it when the game does all that for me, what is the point in having involved quests when you don't even need to keep track of anything yourself? But I'm an avid fan of adventure games like Myst, where you need to keep track of symbols, numbers, words etc. A lot of paper has been used while playing those games. :) Specially when you're solving a puzzle like the one in Uru's, Kadish' Tolesa age (the vault door).

BTW, the journal in Morrowind was more than sufficent to keep me on track.

And, how about you tell me WHY it breaks the game experience? because you need to be more involved yourself to play? No, that can't be it. Because you take your eyes off the screen? Is it really that easy to break your game experience?

kristus said:
But like I said, it'd of course be a lot of work, as all the maps of the maps (heh) would have to be hand-crafted.

Would it be impossible to write a program to convert your levels into the custom automap format?

As for the other discussion, one would think the marine would have equipment able to log from digital sources.

printz said:
Doom 3 and 4 neeed an automap

Why? So you could go back, or find more area's? Doom3 was linear and had hardly any optional area's. Doors closed off visited area's permanently. So why the need for an automap?

kristus said:
But I'm an avid fan of adventure games like Myst, where you need to keep track of symbols, numbers, words etc. A lot of paper has been used while playing those games. :)

If games require you to remember lots of stuff, especially symbols and numbers, it should have an IN-GAME option to make notes. For example in a diary of some sort. Especially if the solution is in some libary on the other side of the continent.

And, how about you tell me WHY it breaks the game experience? because you need to be more involved yourself to play?

Being "involved" means to draw a player inside the game. That doesn't work (at least not for me) if I have to stop playing and write things down on a notepad next to my PC. Or having to scroll through those notes to find the information I need. Keyword here is the "stop playing" part. Even vanilla Doom has to option to write things down on your automap.

not everyone is looking to get drawn so deep into a game that it eats their soul mord

Mordeth: Meh, I don't agree with anything you said, so I'll just acept that we're very different on this point.

John Smith said:

not everyone is looking to get drawn so deep into a game that it eats their soul mord

I heh'd.
But I think Doom 4 should definitely ditch the linearity of Doom 3, it really made me think of it more as an interactive movie than a game. It certainly made a hell of a lot better movie than the actual Doom movie.
I wouldn't mind just seeing Doom 2 remade with the new engine.

Mordeth said:

Why? So you could go back, or find more area's? Doom3 was linear and had hardly any optional area's. Doors closed off visited area's permanently. So why the need for an automap?

Because it's called Doom. After all the Quakes without automaps, it would have been a welcome gimmick, even though unnecessary. Mappers would have been more compelled to design wide maps if they had known there had been an automap.

kristus, isn't there any way to detect vertices and edges so they are drawn on the map?

unless you had a really good coder it'd probably be an ugly mess considering how many hallways and rooms generally are not flat 90 degree wall/floor angles.

a pre-drawn automap would be easier to do.

I found Doom 3 somewhat unengaging, so I don't have particularly high hopes for 4. But if it does turn out to be a retelling of Hell on Earth, then hopefully they'll be able to create something better for the ultimate ruler of Hell, rather than just a big fucking wall this time around.

DooMAD said:

big fucking wall

http://abarclay12.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/biggest_toilet.jpg

BFT!

Anyway, as mentioned before, a pre-drawn map would also do nicely. Like in Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory.

BoldEnglishman said:
http://abarclay12.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/biggest_toilet.jpg

BFT!

Ool s'soremor nhoj ,em hsulf tsum uoy emag eht niw ot.

If I made Doom 4 I'd fill it with fly-through-wall ghosts, laughing vampires in coffins who transform into bats, fire demons, rock monsters, liquid horrors, gryphons and so on.

printz said:

If I made Doom 4 I'd fill it with fly-through-wall ghosts, laughing vampires in coffins who transform into bats, fire demons, rock monsters, liquid horrors, gryphons and so on.

Bit like Doom gameplay meets Diablo plot/atmosphere?

BoldEnglishman said:

Bit like Doom gameplay meets Diablo plot/atmosphere?

No, just not to keep stuff neat and tidy as Doom 3 did. Really, a preview article had promised more than the final D3 product has shown. To be original and feel wild, if it's called Doom, it rather needs to, and keep serious, not goofy with Christmas presents on every fifty metres.

Ah, so they do have a Doom 4 in the making...

Cool. I wouldn't mind playing through either another Doom 3.
But before I get griping I might aswell say this. I feel your pain in how slow and predictable the game could be. It just felt like Doom only in the dark out in space. All alone...kinda.

Now if Doom 4 is just a remake of something, like Hell on Earth, they had better make it worth playing really. Hopefully with large out door environments.