Fear The Anger

w0rd to ola. intellectual property is the only real online "currency". it should be protected as one protects a wallet or piggy bank. there is no such thing os "overreacting" when you are robbed on the street in new york, is there?

There's nothing wrong with using Heretic/Hexen textures. The reason for prohibition of using textures from commercial WADs are intended for companies such as ID to protect themselves from having some other company coming along, let's just say 3DRealms for example, and plugging their hard work and resourses into their game!! Put it in the big picture! These companies don't CARE if you take textures from Hexen and plug them into DOOM! These laws aren't intended to apply to the little level-making hobbyists!! Saying "Wrong is wrong", and "Slightly wrong is still "very wrong" simply doesn't wash. It's as simple as this...: ID doesn't care whether or not you use Hexen textures in your DOOM level. Therefore, it's OKAY to do it!!

what kind of moron is this nick? doesn't he know to do anything on his one? god i bet he still needs his mom to do everything for him. How f*cking stupid is that, trying to steal texture from a texture master, and trying not get caught?

ID Software certainly would care if you copied all the levels and resources from Quake 2 and then released them as a TC for Quake 3! Why would they care. . . . Simple, people are still buying Quake 2, and why would you buy Quake 2 if you could get a free version with an updated engine! It is illegal to use resources from Hexen and Heretic in Doom, but almost no one cares, most importantly Raven Software does not care because nobody buys these games anymore. If some genius John Carmack-like coder modified the Quake Sources to include everything in Quake 3 and someone released a Quake 3 TC (consisting of ripped levels, textures, and models) for Quake, that would piss off ID Software. Anyway, my point is, Game Companies enforce their rights to their resources when they are worried they'll lose money. Ola, it would be easier to support you if you didn't just on Nightmare so badly. I would also like to point out that a lot of the brick textures end up looking similar because everyone makes them symetrical most of the time so all of the bricks are the same size. Therefore, I bet we could find many, many textures that look very similar to those.

there is ABSOLUTELY no way to justify using Hexen/Heretic/Quake resources in your WAD. Just because someone doesn't care does not mean that it is okay to ignore the law. i bet you they DO care, they're just too busy to do anything about it. i'd care. don't pretend that it is "okay" to steal work from people who do this to put FOOD ON THEIR TABLE. if you want to say, "well, i'm going to do it anyway" to me that is a more acceptable answer than "they don't care so its ok", which even if you did know for sure is a ridiculous statement.

I don't think anyone can possible argue with the statement that using textures that someone else made without their permission is wrong. The difference is that Raven Software doesn't care enough to do anything about it while Ola does. Is that a good enough reason to not be pissed that Eternal Doom uses Hexen resources, but get pissed that Nick modified some of Ola's resources? No, of course it isn't, but Raven's not going to notice as readily as Ola will, and the absence of complaint is almost tantamount to acceptance for most of us.

On another note, I'm surprised that Herian 2, which borrowed heavily from Heretic/Hexen including both textures and sprites, was lauded, while that Boomtown WAD was vilified for doing the exact same thing...

I see several textures in Darkening2 that I know Ola didn't make, but I do know who made them, and their creator is not credited. Maybe the pot is calling the kettle black?

To begin with, can we all stop calling Nick "f***ing stupid"? We all know he made a mistake(whether he did it knowingly or not is irrelevant) so let's move on... swedish fish: "1) Using textures from commercial releases is NOT comparable to textures made by an individual from the community." Now there's a double standard for you! A texture is a texture. If you take a texture from Id you're violating a legal copyright. If you take one from Ola(or anyone else) you're violating his(their) intellectual property. In actuality, if you must say one is worse than the other, then it would be the former...

I just looked at the "evidence". All these prove is that both are based on the same texture ripped from somewhere else. And getting this exercised over BRICK textures? You could have at least got pissed over something unique.

As far as I can see when id released the source code, or even before that when they encouraged people to make levels id themselves were giving people permission to use there textures. The only thing id asked for was credit to be given.That was id's choice.If someone makes a decision that they do not want their textures used that is up to them. There is no double standard involved. If a company wants to have people make levels for their product then they are in turn giving them permission to use the textures. Unless they state otherwise.It is slighty different for a company as they get loads of revenue from the proloned interest in the said product. Be that doom,doom2,quake,heretic and so on. ola made it clear he did not want his textures used.id as far as I am aware,and I think we would know if it were otherwise,did not FACE.UK DoomarenA one of the 11% :(

It's just as illegal to ripp a texture by Ola or me or any other as ripping it from ID or Raven (or any other company) as long as there's some little text like.

Copyright (c) (individuals/teams name) 1998-2000.

That is a legal documentation. So if Ola want to sue Nicks pants off he could. (Not that I would suggest it though)

It's from scandinavia all the best doom stuff come from. >:)

OK, here is my (hopefully) final comment to this thread:

I did not steal a single texture from Quake, Quake 2 or any other gamer for The Darkening episode 2. Some textures are based on DOOM and DOOM 2 textures, and that is carefully documented in the text file that will come with the texture WAD release. I have obviously had a lot of inspiration from Quake 2, but not a single pixel was taken from that game.

Regarding the brick textures, I did them from scratch, despite what Prower thinks. They resemble some of the brick walls from DOOM 2, but I merely used them as inspiration. Nick did not - he used MINE as a base for his, which is beyond inspiration. Yet again, I didn't "steal" a single pixel.

I would also like to point out, yet again, that this was the THIRD TIME it happened. I had previously solved these things privately, because believe it or not, I didn't want this. However, Nick has crossed the line one time too many, and I felt it necessary to forcefully show my standpoint on this.

It doesn't matter whose textures look best. And yes, Nicks versions do look better in most cases. I have no problem with that. My problem, and the cause of all this, is that he has repeatedly made textures based on mine without my permission and without giving me credit for my work despite the fact that he knows very well what I think about such actions. That utter lack of respect and morals was too much the third time over, and I had to show him I'm and everyone else I'm taking this serious.

Those who think I went over the edge making those slide-shows: Nick did not admit what he had done so I confronted him with the evidence. Also, it took me about half an hour to do, so don't go thinking I spent a whole day on that. Along with making the little popup and writing the text it might have taken an hour of my time, at the most.

If anyone has questions to me regarding this matter or regarding permission to use my textures, send me a mail. However, flamers will not be treated gently.

Rubbish. Add on levels for doom don't need to contain original textures, they reference them. So id allowing 3rd party levels does not give you any extra rights to *copy* or *edit* the textures (which is what is under discussion). Nor is the source code release relevant, since that gives you a new license to use the source code, nothing else.

To the "Using textures from commercial releases is NOT comparable to textures made by an individual from the community" people: there's no difference, copying is wrong either way. Companies let you make add on levels that *reference* their textures, but that's a big difference. Companies have better things to do than check every level on cdrom.com for copyright violations, but they *do* defend their copyright.. did everyone forget generations already?

1) I did say sorry to Ola (via e-mail) and I repeat it again; huge huge, massive apologies for stealing your textures (and no my versions don't look better than yours). 2) apologies again to Ola, you were right; I looked through the textures again, and the rock texture, both the 32x64 brick textures, all the 8x32 bricks and the two 16x32 "wobbly" brick textures were based on Ola's textures. The three other 16x32 brick textures were all based on the 32x64 Quake 2 brick textures and shrunk down and modified a bit. 3) I _HAVE_ admitted what I've done (and again apologise for it), and I am working to correct it by replacing all the offending textures with new textures that are either from scratch or based on Doom 2 textures. 4) it doesn't matter whether it's one texture or a hundred, you shouldn't rip someone else's work as I did, especially without giving that person credit. 5) and for the last time, I DID NOT EVEN HAVE A FUCKING CHANCE TO GIVE CREDIT!!! Fucking mail Vincent Fong if you don't believe me. 6) all the textures were made over two years ago, at a time when I was crap at making textures from scratch. Ola's textures were the best looking ones around, so I stupidly based some of my work on his. I never base my textures on anyone else's any more (well, except those in Doom2 / Heretic / Hexen / etc) 7) since the textures were made so long ago, I completely forgot that any of them were based on Ola's. 8) Once more, I am seriously really really REALLY sorry, and it will never ever happen again. I shouldn't have done it, but rather than me trying to get credit for something that isn't totally my own work, I simply forgot that any of the Execution textures were anything but from scratch / based on Doom 2 textures.

yeah i'm fucking pissed off at Cyb and all you other frads for stealing my Skypack skies, man why the fuck did you do that for? oh, wait..

I just read the evidence thing on Ola's page; in response to it, several times I've said I've sorry, and I honestly do mean it. On even more occassions I have said that all the textures you refer to will be replaced, something that you never mentioned once in your update. Also, it appears that the other three brick textures were partially based on yours after all. As I've said, they were made a long while ago, so I can't remember exactly how I made them. Once more: I am truly really sorry, both for ripping the textures in the first and for offending you so deeply. As you said in your first update, I know how much your textures mean to you (they are incredibly beautiful after all), and I'd never want to hurt you deliberately.

Thank you Nick. I've deleted the whole thing from my web site. Case closed.

Ola: thanks for accepting my apology. Hopefully we can put all of this behind us. One other thing... once the DE2 are released publically, would you object to an add-on that had new textures (not based on DE2's of course) that reference the original DE2 textures in the PNAMES/TEXTURE1 (or even added new patches to existing ones?)

I've now got replacements for all 11 textures done, and most of them actually look better than the originals (I don't know about you, but those wobbly textures were rather shite) :) I'm thinking of replacing a lot of the other new textures too (some of them are kinda sucky), and possibly many of the original Doom 2 textures as well. So in a way, this is all leading to a good thing. I don't have an estimate on how long this will take, depends on how many textures I decide to replace, but I'm guessing at a week max.

I love a good doom discussion thread. Anyways, I do agree with CPH and others that legally copying game textures is wrong. With the doom series games they have been somewhat lax on enforcing these rules and I think it's become accepted now in the community by most. This is probably hypocritical but socially acceptable. ID only recently has become legalistic about their resources with generations and similiar Q3a addons. I think this was mainly because they were considering another doom game using a quake-like engine and this was a business threat. All said and done no hard feelings just good discussion.

After looking at both sides of the argument, I'm no longer sure what to think. I didn't even vote on the Doomworld poll. I'd say that using textures without permission depends on the situation. I'll respect when people say they do not want anyone to borrow anything from them, with or without credit. But, (Yes, there's a "but" here,) although I'm not as experienced, and probably do not take six to ten hours to finish one area of a map, when I release anything, I say "Go ahead and do whatever you want with them, so long as you tell me about it, and mention where you get it from. If I found out someone "stole" something from me without telling me, or giving me credit, I'd take it as merely a misunderstanding, e-mail them, and ask them to credit me. I would probably only get upset if they ignore my request, or flatly refuse. <BR>But then, maybe I'm just too nice.

Thankfully. Oh, and for someone who seemed to think so, Swedish Fish aint Swedish... it refers to a little candy you can buy in stores that he gets a kick out of.

I've been wondering about this for along time: How about TCs such as Batman that use (i'm assuming) uses generic and/or original sprites/textures created by the authors, but are still based off of movies or comics? Could they be considered "fan fiction", and scince they are distributed for free, be somwehat excempt? Sidenote: FOX did go after another (Aliens?) TC for Quake. From what I heard, it was rather poor, and yet Aliens Doom was left alone (maybe they didn't know about it). Hmmm....

<center><font face="arial" size="5"><B>Hypocrites.</B></font></center>

CHILDREN.....calm down! Creating add-on levels is positively encouraged these days since it provideds an effective, zero cost way of marketing a game. After all, I'm sure plenty of people out there would not have bought a copy of doom if it weren't for the countless freebie levels available on the internet. Indeed, games these days come equipped with their own level editors so all this talk of copyright is complete tosh - so long as you don't try to make money out of it! Besides, for Ola to chose to sue Nick (which I'm sure he wouldn't)would be an act of pure stupidity. This would imply that Ola had been seeking to make a gain from his textures and would lay himself wide open to a lawsuit by id, Raven or whoever. Now,Ola & Nick, I'd like you to kiss & make up. This doom 'community' needs you....although judging by some of the stupid comments below I'm not sure you need them!

Some of the greatest projects in 'Doom History' have been based off ripped work. Mordeth has a lot of Hexen sprites/textures, Herian 2 ripped from Hexen a lot, much of the textures in GothicDM/2/98/99 are taken from Hexen/Heretic/Quake or modifyed versions of them, Eternal Doom has a good amount of Hexen resources in it, my MassMouth thingy had a major amount of HalfLife stuff in it, QDoom is all Quake (textures, sounds and so on), Afterglow recently released all the Q2 textures in a wad. I'm sure a great deal more projects have done this as well, but those ones come to mind first. Then stuff like Batman Doom, AliensTC, every Star Wars TC ever made, and so on, are based on copyrighted material. In fact, I'd say just about every level on CDROM.com rips something from somewhere, if not graphics or sounds, then ideas. Half-Life had coronas before DoomGL and GLLegacy did, maybe they ripped off Half-Life. How far are you willing to go before it gets silly and stupid?

This should have stayed between Ola and Nick from the beginning and not come to us 'hypocrites' (as teppic put it) since we praise Mordeth, Herian 2 and Eternal and tear apart Birdman for doing the same exact thing which they did before him.

I know this won't change anything, but it'd be nice it we didn't flame someone every time they made a mistake or something. You might be the person who makes a mistake next and how would you enjoy being in the center of all this garbage? It's suprising more people haven't left already by now.

shit, I missed all the hub-bub...anyway, I think you guys all take yourselves a bit too seriously. I mean, we're talking about a game that's well over 5 years old, and only a handful of ppl left playing it to any extent. I dunno what the big deal is about ppl using other ppl's textures. Personally, I'd be flattered that someone found my texture work good enuff to use in their levels...especially if it was Nick Baker...who's a pretty slick mapper anyway. Ho hum...it's not like Ola is a game company and Nick Baker is a game company...heh...chill hommies.

Well, I would normally say the same thing Ric, but when I think about all the work I'm putting into my project, I can feel for Ola's plight. Plagiarism is plagiarism, even if it's nonprofit.

Recid: Like the ripped music in Everybody Dies?

I have a copy of Aliens Quake... As much as you would like to think that Aliens for Quake would rule, it doesn't. It's a horrible TC and you aren't missing out on anything. Go play Aliens DOOM instead which is much superior.