"New year, new URE" - URE:E2 - E2M2 up!

3 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

I'll have to compare my scribbles with the way it looks now.

This is the scribble (I'm home ^^)

^{"From the mind of a lunatic."}

Clearly, when I drew that, I had no recollection how high the BROWN1 wall is, that creates the edge under the TEKWALL4 detailing.

So I'll have to find some way to consolidate the two ideas.

*rolls up sleeves*

2 hours ago, Zylinderkatze said:

Here's a peek

..aaaand here is a very, very simple first look at it, in-game:

^{Textures, light-levels and dimensions subject to change*}

This might not make it into E2M4, though.. but I wanted to draw a few sectors to get back into it.

___

^{* Yes, that means.. basically.. everything xD}

On 3/7/2023 at 9:36 PM, Zylinderkatze said:

I will leave that for tomorrow

This is an update again (again)!

^{Too much detail in the overhanging block? I kinda like it.}

Also: This area is almost completely blocked off from the "hot" area (which is to the left from the BROWN96-TEKWALL4-BROWN1 bit).. so the Draw Segs in this part are "pretty chill"! Good news, for once xD

I have a few ideas for the "BROWNGRN" stuff off towards the right.. but that's where some of the heat of the main area is "radiating" to, so I will keep it simple. In fact, for now I won't touch it at all ^^;

More writing than mapping?

So I did do some stuff for about an hour or so.. not just in the area mentioned in the last posts.. but generally, the "mapping fire" isn't fully ignited yet. 

Perhaps it's time to do some work on E2M5 to get my head out of E2M4 for a bit!

But for now, there's not much sense in "making" myself continue.

I'll be back when I am back ^^

Funnily enough (looking at your sketches) I'm mentally preparing myself to whip out the sketch paper and draw myself some visual aids for a map I'm making.  I normally don't do this in Doom mapping these days but I'm trying to make a map with, like, 6 layers of stacked sector portals and I need some way to keep it all straight. 

You can be my role model! :D

13 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

You can be my role model! :D

Anything I do, if it inspires or encourages someone, even just a little bit, even if only by proxy or derivation, it makes me happy :>

I hope it pans out the way you like! Godspeed, @jerrysheppy!

Quite excited to see what your mapping efforts of that layer cake of a map will turn into!

Great. Now I want cake >_<

"Versions"

Doing that thing again, where I spend a bunch of time trying different textures before I finally decide to just completely scrap an area or part of it xD

Today:

^{This is kind of the first version I came up with.}

Versus:

^{And this is more brown xD}

The "BROWN1" texture under the overhead block above the entrance in the second picture is just a test to feel out whether that texture might work better.

I'm still trying to see which combination looks and feels best.. but I should probably first work out how high I want the wall on the right to be.. because that'll be a whole other can of worms to sensibly match / align with the texture on the wall in the middle.

As you can tell.. I am not at all sure yet, where this will go.

Also, there's a secret behind the edge (the one that's "BROWN1" in the second screenshot) an elevated sector with a green armor on it.. and I think that's just making it too crowded / visually busy.

Maybe I'll just add a window so you can see it from the outside. hmm. 

I have a feeling I am getting lost in detail a little ^^;

More?

Oh no.

Yeah, I'm on a roll.

^{The BROWN1 is spreading O_O}

..also, I am not really any wiser, though.

I'll leave it like this for now, then come back later and scrap it xD

I think I am done for now

Some progress, some "let's at least prepare the connection to a later area" sectors added.. and voilà:

^{Oh he's doing the "green & purple" thing again!}

Start is done, actually everything above and to the right of "start" is done, too.. the whole center of the map, really. I should've drawn an outline ^^; The "exit" is done, as well (because it's the same as in E2M3, so it's copied & pasted xD). You basically loop back onto that "T"-section in the bottom left of that overview.. and as soon as you step outside, you exit the map.

Sadly, everything that's purple.. isn't done.

Meaning:

• I finally started a little bit of "oh I can see my house E2M2 from here!" layout,
• I added a connecting path from the passage I've been spamming the in-editor views until now.. but it's basically a barren big sector (the bendy purple arrow),
• I didn't even touch the rooftops area this time.

So the absolute bare minimum to finish the map is there now.. but most of it is just passages without anything exciting happening and nothing fun to look at (or shoot). So.. still much to do!

But not today.

Finally..

Here's a little treat(?).. a first look at the E2M2 callback thing that I mentioned above:

^{Why no detail?}

That's as close as possible to where those buildings would be, going by the mission starting points on the vanilla "inter-mission" screen. The "METAL1"-clad thing in the background is a visual cue for me (myself & I), because that's where the reactor core is. I have a few fun ideas what to do with it.. but this is a bonus area so.. once again I am going to spend a whole bunch of effort on something that hardly anyone will see :D

I have problems xD

No mapping today!

But thoughts ^^ 

So I've noticed and I keep noticing, that -unless I have a very specific design in mind to begin with, often in some scribbled form- I seem to lack the skill to adequately detail floors and- especially- ceilings.

I think I'm getting a little better with it in E2.. but the whole idea of believable light fixtures, pipes, coverings.. is something I'm constantly pushing myself to improve.

Same with wall details.. my walls are often pretty plain unless there's some sort of set piece. At least that's the impression that I've kept from my own creations, looking back.

How do you go about adding detail that feels "appropriate", without making it just looks like "detail for detail's sake"?

I have my own ideas and approaches but I don't want you sway the jury xD

Personally I don't bother much with small details like pipes, broken tiles or doors, etc...
I do add stuff like that in my maps sometimes, but most of the time I just place blood splats, hanging corpses and lamps to decorate. Then I let the lighting and geometry do the heavy lifting. (I loove doing cool shadows and playing with lighting values)

Here's a small example of what I mean:

The geometry and texturing is very simple. The high contrast lighting pretty much carries the room's good looks here, plus the cool detail of the hanging corpse's silhouette and the crate scanning machine.

Now, here's what the same shot looks like with attenuated lighting and no shadows:

This kind of detailing can be very heavy on visplanes and drawsegs though, so I dunno if it'll be any use to you.

Of course, you don't necessarily need lots of lighting work to make your map look good. This is just the way I like detailing mine and the thought process that goes into them.

I also don't really worry about "detail for detail's sake". If it looks good and plays nice, then cool! It's not really something the player thinks about unless the detail hinders the movement and gameplay, like lots of wall indents, lots of tables that you can't jump over, angled walls in narrow spaces, etc...

Hope this gives you an idea to continue mapping :)

Honestly, detail is something that I struggle with also.  Maybe not in the sense that I release underdetailed maps, but it's often a grind for me to figure out something I'm happy with.

Especially when I'm making a base map.  With a hell or otherwise otherworldly map, I feel like I can cut loose and just make stuff that looks cool.  With a base map, it's always a struggle to fit the textures and geometry around something that feels plausible to me.

On 3/15/2023 at 4:38 AM, jerrysheppy said:

something that feels plausible

First off: I am not sure whether I am the right person to comment on making plausible-feeling (interior) architecture. 

That said, something that is very fresh in my memory is the last time I was inspired to a scene with a particular layout. Here I'll upload a picture:

^{I hadn't even drawn it out until I just mentioned it now xD}

If you want to guess where it's from, don't open this Spoiler warning until you guessed!

What I mean to say (spoiler free, basically): Watch some stuff that has interiors or exteriors that look like the mood you wish to convey, gather some impressions that way.. industrial design studies for furniture or technical equipment might also help, likewise some architecture photography.

I find that looking at stuff that is basically not possible in Vanilla Doom.. and then finding ways to make it work anyways.. is the most inspiring challenge, to me.

10 hours ago, Cacodemon187 said:

I loove doing cool shadows and playing with lighting values

This is definitely something I am slowly getting better with. In other words, something I am still working on improving. In better words, something I still kind of suck at ^^;

The whole "contrasting light values" to add variety and visual delight (get it?) is quite an art.

I like how you can lead the player's eye with color and / or brightness. I currently under-utilize that tool, for sure.

11 hours ago, Cacodemon187 said:

I also don't really worry about "detail for detail's sake"

Yeah, same, really! Adding detail just because something isn't interesting enough.. is kind of a last resort. Though.. that is also kind of a general statement. Of course a 1280-unit long wall without any variation.. would feel a little bland, too :D

I was more aiming at adding "fluff", as some might call it. I guess this can't really be put into a simple rule, at least not by me. 

Usually, the (area of the) map should be interesting enough by itself, neither obscure or obstruct the view / path of the player.. and guide them in a concise way.

A rule I apply.. let's say.. selectively ^^;;

"My work here is done".

I mean.. no.. no it obviously is not. But I wanted to share something that is very lightly URE-related and much less lightly DOOM-related:

For work, we are exploring options of Machine Learning ("nothing Intelligent about it") and of course I played around with defining a ruleset that would prompt ChatGPT ("3.5 turbo") to generate Challenges for a mapping contest. This one was too cursed not to share:

I'm not even going to hide any secret links in that spoiler.

That makes some sort of sense.  Presumably the network can only figure out what's supposed to be in a Doom mapping contest challenge by looking at whatever Doom mapping challenges happen to be in its training data set.  Meme stuff like FIREBLU is a pretty common element of those challenges, so naturally it goes there.

One could almost say that if a mapping challenge doesn't reach a certain level of cursedness, it's not really a challenge, is it?

15 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

training data set

Exactly. It's cool to see that there's some data there, that actually generates.. something like what I'd expect. 

At the same time it's baffling how the results range from "almost scarily viable" to "utter nonsense". 

It makes me feel like a teacher, trying to come up with a homework assignment for a student, when writing these prompts.

But it's fun to play around with ^^

Speaking of "playing around"!

^{(I'm almost back at my segue A-game!)}

After the Diablo 4 Beta last weekend and my initial Terra Nil excitement this week, eating up all my spare time and then some.. I should finally be back to mapping this weekend. AND I have next week off! So even more mapping? Who knows!

Here's to hoping that creativity will strike.. by itself or with some coaxing by me xD

I'm curious and a little excited.

Enough with all this stalling and talks about AI/ML stuff!

Here's good and honest Doom mapping progress screenshots!

..because now that I am done with the layout of the first area of E2M4, I copied it's geometry over to the end of E2M3, for a seamless transition.

Exit E2M3:

^{You walk through that "EXIT" door and of course it closes behind you.}

Enter E2M4:

^{This is the look back at where you came from (implied).}

Of course, in the E2M3 screenshot, there's hardly any actual level geometry behind that gate and off to the right..

..and likewise there's nothing to see really, should you decide to clip through that gate in the E2M4 screenshot.

Gimmicky?

The thing is, E2M3 isn't really that big (by my standards).. and even with E2M4 together (which is bigger) the two of them don't rival URE2020's E1M9 in size yet.

So the whole "transitioning between maps" is currently more of a neat little "look what I can do" and not really.. well.. necessary in any way.

Then again, nothing I do here is really necessary xD

Speak for yourself.  I subscribe to a teleological philosophy of Doom mapping, wherein the universe as we know it was retroactively created by the need for our Doom maps to come into being.

4 hours ago, jerrysheppy said:

Speak for yourself.  I subscribe to a teleological philosophy of Doom mapping, wherein the universe as we know it was retroactively created by the need for our Doom maps to come into being.

It's quotes like this- and people like you- who make the Doomworld forum a place I love returning to.

I shall delve into this philisophical construct you propose.. and chance to allow myself to become a mere conduit to allow the greater URE universe to be unleashed upon the umprepared, albeit curious populace.

On 3/13/2023 at 10:27 PM, Zylinderkatze said:

^{Why no detail?}

...because I wasn't done yet. Sheesh.

I'm still not done but here's a little more detail!

^{A door? Hmm..}

I'm investing maybe a little bit too much time into an area that's entirely optional.. but it's fun right now so why not!

^{(that's a rhetorical question)}

I need more details.

Okay.. so.. I decided to carry over a "theme" of sorts from the main outside area of E2M4 into the "secret" callback to E2M2.. but now I'm not sure how to "terminate" those beams / supports / pipes.

^{Very plain?}

^{With sort of a "base" around them?}

Maybe something else entirely?

I'll think of something. Maybe they'll all terminate in a slightly bulkier base that actually looks more like a purposeful.. uh.. "thing" ^^;

Who knows!

6 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

thing

Hmm..

^Hmmmmmm..

Floor detail?

Who are you and what did you do with ZK?

^{I was just playing around but it looks kinda neat.}

"Might delete later" xD

Hung up on details

Remember how I said that this "secret" outside area from the recent screenshots shows the outside of URE:E2's "E2M2"?

So this door that I showed before:

^{Does it always glow like that?}

..actually has a passage behind it. Which I want to visually, thematically connect all the way to a "hint" of a few sectors that you can (now, after my efforts) also reach from this part of E2M2:

^{It's another, even secret..er door!}

But the way they connect.. doesn't really feel good to me yet. Basically, both maps now have the connecting passage (meaning: the highlighted doors aren't the same door), which is just a "tube" sector with nothing in it at the moment.

And of course I'll need a believable reason why you can't actually go through the passage in E2M2 and leave to that outside area (unless..?) and also, why you can't go from E2M4 back into E2M2.

One explanation could be that after the player's visit to E2M2, it's not completely destroyed and radiated and the player can't possibly survive there..

But this idea / "problem" has been kind of blocking me mentally for a day now and I haven't really made much headway.

I think I'll just focus on some other part of the map for now ^^;

Afterthought:

I am currently considering making use of an item that I could use to tease the player from E2M2.. that they could see but not reach from E2M2.. and only get to in the E2M4 version of the same area (but then they might wonder why they can't get to it >_<).

It would clearly have to be an item that doesn't count towards the 100% item pickup. like maybe a Berzerk or a Backpack.

Also, I would be breaking with my "if you can see it, you can get to it" self-imposed rule.

This is getting too "concept-y", I think >_<

To hell and back again

Okay.. no, not really "hell". More like.. to the secret area that looks like the outside of E2M2?

But that didn't sound as good.

Anyways!

I mapped some details:

^{Watch your step!}

^{Helmets? We don't need no stinking helmets!}

^{Ohh.. some light detail!}

^{There's even a yellow door!}

And yes, the light detail in the last and second-to-last picture are the same ones, just from different angles.

Also, that wall-mounted console of sorts.. in the second screenshot.. is way too bright, considering it doesn't do anything. False attention-grab!

Also also, there will likely still be many changes coming up, as always.. but I wanted to post an update.

Phew.. building maps from scratch takes so much longer than updating existing ones >_<

On 3/13/2023 at 12:52 PM, Zylinderkatze said:

 

Anything I do, if it inspires or encourages someone, even just a little bit, even if only by proxy or derivation, it makes me happy :>

 

I hope it pans out the way you like! Godspeed, @jerrysheppy!

 

Quite excited to see what your mapping efforts of that layer cake of a map will turn into!

 

Great. Now I want cake >_<

Hope I'm not hijacking your thread; I won't try to colonize it for my own mapping blog or anything.  But you were so encouraging that I just want to post a follow-up to this little interaction.  So.  Here, for the record, is the sort of thing that it turns out I do when I'm sketching a visual aid for a map:
 

Yeah, safe to say I'm not overly bothered about the fine detail.  XD  I generally don't need a sketch to help me start envisioning a 3D room in a Doom map, and while I don't always know exactly what I'm doing ahead of time, my approach is usually to just start pulling linedefs around in UDB and seeing what works.  But this particular undertaking was just so complex, in terms of its interconnections, that I had to lay out on paper how the major layers would fit together before I could get past the initial paralysis and start laying it out in the editor.

Unfortunately, after I got deep into building it, I was forced to conclude that the six layers just weren't going to work out the way I had originally envisioned them. :(

 

On 4/8/2023 at 9:06 AM, jerrysheppy said:

Reveal hidden contents

That's some doom pwad cake I'd love to dig into! I'm rather curious to find out what this will turn out to be :D

On a different note..

Notice how I haven't been around? Pepperidge Farm noticed.

But seriously: I was visiting my parents. However, that's not the whole truth. The other part of the truth is that "Meet Your Maker" was / is free on PS+ this month and I got kinda hooked on that stuff. It's weird and crude and simple and kind of unfair at times but so is life but that's actually part of the appeal, to me.

Fear not, though.. I'll be mapping URE again soon. Very soon! Today!

Stay tuned :3

48 minutes ago, Zylinderkatze said:

Fear not, though.. I'll be mapping URE again soon. Very soon! Today!

 

Stay tuned :3