[Now on idgames!] My First Map: The Salt Mines - A single-map series of boom-compatible arenas

[Large Cat]

As a fledgling mapper, I am looking for some feedback on my first ever map release. I just published my first map on idgames, but I'm leaving the thread here in case anyone has any opinions on it they'd like to share. It's a single map with a series of difficult arenas, positioned around a central hub. The arenas focus on tightly choreographed combat, usually in cramped spaces. Although there are large numbers of monsters in total, no individual fight amounts to slaughter gameplay, in my experience. To keep combat "to the point," there is no opposition between arenas; all fights come in discrete chunks. Hopefully, this will provide clear times to save the game during a casual playthrough. The intended difficulty is harder than Ancient Aliens or Valiant, but easier than the last third of Scythe 2. There are 270-370 monsters in the regular portion of the map, which seems to take people around an hour to complete with saves. The final fight adds another 400-450 monsters, but it will go by much faster than the rest of the map.

 

I have just added the more slaughter-focused optional final fight. It's "optional" in the sense that you can easily walk past it without any negative effects; it's just there for those who have a hankering for maximum demonic rampage. If the regular part of the map proves too tiring, you can just clock out early and skip this battle. If you would like to skip to this final battle, I included this fight alone in the MAP02 slot, allowing you to skip the rest of the buildup. Difficulty-wise, a slaughter aficionado will probably beat it more easily than the hardest fights of the rest of the map, but those less than skilled in crowd manipulation may get swarmed.

 

I strongly encourage starting on HNTR or HMP difficulty, as UV can get very grindy without precise play and proper routing. I would also like to get feedback on difficulties other than UV. My hope is that the lower difficulties keep the spirit and energy of UV while being more forgiving.

 

I will keep (a link to) the most up-to-date version (i.e. the final version) here:

 

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/s-u/salt

 

Any feedback on any part of the map is much appreciated, and I will keep an eye on this topic for anyone who has thoughts about what they like or how I could alter the map to maximize its potential. I would especially like any thoughts regarding the final fight, as it it brand new and hasn't received any public attention. It's outside my normal playstyle, so I'd appreciate thoughts about the new final battle from someone more experienced with slaughter gameplay. You can skip to MAP02 to jump straight to the final fight.

 

Although the map is finalized, feel free to tell me what you think about it/what gripes you have with it. I probably won't alter this map, but any thoughts provided will help me in developing future maps.

 

Some screenshots:

Spoiler

 

Some info about the map:

• IWAD: Doom II
• Content: One map, in the MAP01 slot (and just the final battle in the MAP02 slot)
• Map Format: Boom (-complevel 9 or strict boom compatibility)
• Tested with PrBoom+ 2.5.1.5 and GZDoom. Should also work with derived ports (e.g. DSDA Doom or Zandronum), as well as any other boom-compatible port.
• The map is tested without advanced features like freelook, jumping and crouching, so these are not recommended.
• Other info should be included in the attached text file (though let me know if missed something!).

 

Changelog:

Spoiler

Changes for final version

• Reduced the number of plasma guys in the plasma wing
• Changed the level title color in the intermission screen

 

Changes for version 8

• Changed telegraphing for initial fork entering the mine
• Fixed difficulty settings for two megaspheres
• Small nodebuilding tweaks
• Added map title and background to intermission screen
• Added intermission music
• Added new plasma gun sound

 

Changes for version 7

• Added a second track and MUSINFO lump
• Changed sky to nighttime (from TNT ep2)
• Added a new palette, changing green ranges to muted blue
• Green armor is now purple to distinguish from megaarmor
• Added optional final fight

 

Changes for version 6

• Fixed some miscellaneous visual bugs
• Made AV jumping out of the red key area harder
• Further alterations to blue salt and intro

 

Changes for version 5

• Added monster-blocking lines to the monsters on pillars in the SSG fight and red door fight
• Unstuck the hell knight in the shotgun room on HMP
• Increased soulsphere secret visibility
• Added lighting to the exit switches in the plasma room
• Simplified exiting the yellow key room on HMP and UV
• Made blue salt piles easier to activate
• Removed damaging floors in rocket launcher area
• Added lighting to step-raising switches in red key room
• Highlighted cyberdemon with BFG
• Lowered rocket launcher fight intensity on HMP
• Staggered archvile entry in blue key fight
• Made blue salt intro more aggressive
• Added more cell ammo on HNTR and HMP
• Added more armor on HNTR and HMP

 

With luck, I'll be able to get some feedback, make some changes as needed, then upload to idgames! The map has been uploaded to idgames! Thanks to everyone who plays this map, and double thanks to those who share their experience!

saltv8.zip

Edited March 10, 2022 by Large Cat
final version

[ScrappyMcDoogerton]

I had a lot of fun playing this map it has some interesting combat encounters and a nice doomcute aesthetic here is a vid of my playthrough:

 

[Large Cat]

Huge thanks @ScrappyMcDoogerton for the playthrough vid! I really appreciate that you stuck it out through the rough beginning and the blue key fight. I watched the whole playthrough and took some notes, and I'll get a new version out soon with some changes. A few things I noticed in particular:

 

I think I will use some stronger language suggesting people play on HNTR or HMP for blind runs; I want UV to be a real test for players who know what is ahead and what resources they have to work with. For instance, I think having the invuln or BFG during the blue key fight would have eased your burden a lot, but that's so hard to gauge in a blind run. I know UV is the "default," but hopefully I can make the lower difficulties just as engaging as UV to remove that tendency.

 

The other huge thing I need to do: explain the mechanic with the blue salt piles better. The blue salt piles can be interacted with to provide health, so that was a considerable source of health that was effectively locked off, since I didn't make this clear. I don't think my "tutorial" worked in part because you were beset by revenant missiles, so I'll figure something out for that (such as providing enough bullets to take down the revenants).

 

Based on your woes of life without a rocket launcher, I'll consider telegraphing the branching paths harder. For all but the rocket launcher path, you can see the prize before dropping in, but some of them require you to squint (particularly the blue key and SSG) and could use some lighting to make them clearer.

 

The switch to unlock the first shotgun is a bit finicky, but I think it's very gettable if the player sees it. I'll consider making it more apparent, but I also want to get some more playtesting before I go altering my secrets. If nobody is finding those other four secrets, I should telegraph them better.

 

I actually considered putting monster-blocking lines around the chaingunners on the pillars, but elected not to, since they're still totally part of the fight if the fall. But if knocking them off is annoying, maybe I'll lock them up there.

 

I think it makes sense for me to remove the damaging floors in the rocket launcher area. I don't think they add enough to the fight to justify being forced to cross them to leave.

 

I'll think about mixing things up with the archvile arrival in the blue key fight. This is also much more forgiving outside of UV, and I'm expecting a UV player to enter this fight with invuln or a BFG, but they might just work better with one of your suggestions.

 

Again, thanks a lot for the feedback. Let me know if there is anything else that you think deserves special mention.

[BaileyTW]

 I played version 4 with the DSDA Doom port on complevel 9 on ultra violence with saves in between each fight back at the hub though I did try different orders of fights at the hub and the paths before that. Will give it a try at other difficulties as well after this. First of all this is a damn great map and a damn hard one too. The speed barons add pressure to fights in a way normal barons otherwise couldnt, the plasma miners as well are a good addition though on a blind playthrough are rather brutal, though if UV is meant to be a challenge after playing the map at a lower difficulty there is nothing wrong with this I however did not do this cause of hubris.

 

The design of each fight is neat, the stand out fight of course was the red key fight with the archeviles. I dont think anything needs to change about those. I found every secret mostly when they would be useful, though

Spoiler

I found the secret in the plasma room later due to the fact that the computer panel that lowers for the secret doesnt look any different to tell there may be a secret there, same with the 2nd secret linking the chaingun and shotgun room at the start, I only found those cause I was pressing use on any computer panel I found rather than because I found some tell. The 6 other secrets though do have tells and are just fine, even these 2 secrets aren't too bad or anything.

The difficulty of each fight was rather fair. Did manage to beat the map without using the bfg because it took me a while to notice where the bfg is, and did do each fight without the invuln and any of the center room's goodies so I guess that shows how feasible each fight is without those.

 

Some small things. The blue salt piles are a bit finicky in their activation since only the outer linedefs lower them. This becomes less annoying when you realize this, but for the first one in particular this is irritating and leaves a bad first impression.   In the fight in the room that goes back to the start, the revenants can be pushed off their pillars by the chaingun or anything really and this makes them significantly more annoying to deal with, might be a good idea to trap them up there with monster blocking linedefs, where the monsters stand on the pillars in that room is also damaging floor though it looks like perfectly normal rock floor, don't know if this is intentional. I spent 4 minutes total trying to get out of the yellow key fight room, one time when exiting the fight, the other time when I came back looking for secrets. The jumps to make it across are just a tiny bit too tight. This might be unavoidable since any thinner and maybe it would block enemy movement too much, just thought I'd mention it.

 

Other than those tiny things though, the map is really good. The visuals are neat and as far as a salt mine goes is unique, the suped up chaingun feels as a chaingun should, and the midi is very nice. I dont think the txt mentions if it is an original composition or not but it is really good and fits the map nicely.

 

I guess it would be a good idea to change the intermission screen. Maybe even change the graphic for the difficulty selection if the intention is to have the "intended" difficulty be one other than ultra-violence.

 

Did go back and immediately record a hurt me plenty demo of it since I don't actually know if I can record video. It is a lot more reasonably difficult for a blind run, almost as if that was the intention. Was neat seeing the small differences and how they changed the difficulty. Do feel the introduction of the speed baron is more impactful on ultra-violence though with you being trapped. Also I noticed a stuck hell knight in the chaingun fight. Here's the zip: Bailey_saltv4_hmp.zip

 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by BaileyTW

[Large Cat]

Thanks a bunch @BaileyTW! I'll see what I can do with the blue salt piles to make them easier to trigger. I thought I made the inner lines also work, but it's likely even then that some of them will be facing the wrong way.

 

It sounds to me like the "trickier" modes of exit for the yellow key room may be more trouble than they're worth. I may just remove them and make the exit work like on HNTR.

 

I claim that HMP is "intended" in some way, then I put a HK on top of an imp. Yikes. Thanks for the pointer on that one!

 

The double soulsphere grab by the SSG room in your demo was tragic, but hopefully it goes to show that there are sufficient health resources on HMP.

[Large Cat]

Thanks to the feedback on version 4, version 5 is now available via the main post, mostly with various balance and quality of life changes.

 

Feedback is still desired, and I will work on adding the final encounter to the map, which will be available between the blue and yellow key doors in the loop back to the beginning area.

[Rykzeon]

Played on Zandronum, died multiple times on UV on first try, then moves into ITYTD because I don't like saving.

Cool blue salt piles mechanics, but it's confusing at first encounter because IMO the blue salt pile is looked like as some decoration. Probably can be fixed by:
1) Baiting area behind the blue salt pile as secret area so players may think the blue salt pile does open the way to the secret;
2) Variation of 1st, put Health Bonus behind, top, or / and front of blue salts;
3) Make the first area less fighting so player can explore around.
Maybe you should add variant of blue salt piles like green salt piles for armour, the salt piles mechanics are cool and can become a charm for your wad.
Speaking of first encounter of blue salt piles, I found a bug:

Spoiler

About buttons, somehow I missed the button for shotgun because it blends with the enviroment (or I just blind). Perhaps make them "outstand" from the enviroment by:
1) Using vivid colors,
2) Increase the light level for the switch,
3) Make the switch bigger,
4) Put the switch at obvious spot,
5) etc.

Spoiler

At red keycard, I can get out immediately by archvile jumping. I don't know if it is intended or not.

Spoiler

At yellow keycard, I think it might a good idea to make Demon & Plasma Miner infight each other (since most of the time, I made monsters infight each other).

Spoiler

At rocket launcher area, I think fake contrast messed up.

Spoiler

About atmosphere, I think the music suits well with the "Exploring a Mine Site that goes wrong" theme. Can be enchanced by darken the area and add dramatic lighting effects. I think it is a good idea to make the story happens at night so you can make the outdoor darker (but perhaps not darker more than inside the mine).

Edited January 15, 2022 by Rycuz

[Large Cat]

Thanks for taking a look at the map; the visual errors should be easy enough to fix. I do think that the map is tricky to play blind and saveless, even on lower difficulties.

 

Quote

Maybe you should add variant of blue salt piles like green salt piles for armour, the salt piles mechanics are cool and can become a charm for your wad.

I'll consider this idea about the armor salt piles. Especially on UV, armor is tighter than health, so these piles will potentially be very valuable; we'll see if I can wield that value well.

 

Quote

About buttons, somehow I missed the button for shotgun because it blends with the enviroment (or I just blind). Perhaps make them "outstand" from the enviroment by:
1) Using vivid colors,
2) Increase the light level for the switch,
3) Make the switch bigger,
4) Put the switch at obvious spot,
5) etc.

Maybe it's not clear due to the lack of immediate feedback, but these switches are meant to be secret. It's definitely hard to tell that the caged shotgun is secret on Zandronum, since that secret will not tag properly. If you think they're too obscure even for secrets, perhaps I can look at telegraphing them a little harder.

 

Quote

At red keycard, I can get out immediately by archvile jumping. I don't know if it is intended or not.

I knew this was a possibility, but it might be worth me making it a little trickier to pull off.

[Large Cat]

Thanks for continued attention! I implemented many of the suggestions I got, and have uploaded the latest version of the map. I am still intending to add a major final encounter, but that may get put off until I get some other mapping projects done.

[Large Cat]

Version 7 has finally arrived. With the addition of the final battle, the map can be considered "complete" by this point. However, I would love it if a few people ran through the final battle and shared their thoughts on it before it finalize the map. Anyone who wants to check out just the final fight (it's something of a slaughter-fest) can warp to MAP02 to skip the rest of the map.

[Large Cat]

Went ahead and added some minor changes for a version 8. See OP for WAD and changelog. At present, I intend for this to be the final version unless someone shows me some errors I missed.

[Rykzeon]

Just a random thought, maybe if possible, make the sky changes to dawn sky texture after player finished and exit the salt mine.
Also, another random thought, I feel that I'm kinda hard-wired with old weapons & monsters mechanics lol.

Haven't fully replay the map again, because dsda-doom keeps quitting with signal 11 error.

[Large Cat]

8 hours ago, Rycuz said:

Haven't fully replay the map again, because dsda-doom keeps quitting with signal 11 error.

Uh oh! Could you tell me where this is happening and what version of DSDA Doom you're running?

Edited March 3, 2022 by Large Cat

[Gibbon]

1. After breaking the first blue ice blocks, if you run, you can miss the shotgun and chaingun because of the dropping floor.

2. After the dropping floor, being ambushed in a tiny area with minimal shotgun ammo and a baron and hellknight isn't really a fair fight (on UV).  Especially with those additional hitscanners.

 

Otherwise it is pretty solid!

Edited March 3, 2022 by Gibbon

[Large Cat]

Thanks for playing. I'd like to clarify to make sure I understand your points.

3 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

1. After breaking the first blue ice blocks, if you run, you can miss the shotgun and chaingun because of the dropping floor.

Are you saying that you missed grabbing either of the guns? If so, that's actually intended; those guns just telegraph which path will provide which gun, but on UV, you have to kill an enemy to get the gun. If you are successfully grabbing these, I may need to refigure this area.

7 minutes ago, Gibbon said:

2. After the dropping floor, being ambushed in a tiny area with minimal shotgun ammo and a baron and hellknight isn't really a fair fight (on UV).  Especially with those additional hitscanners.

I tried to balance this fight such that there is enough ammo to kill everything with the shell pickups on the lowering pillars and the shell box in the plasma guy alcove. If this isn't how it's happening, I could consider adding some shells, but on UV, I'd like a need for ammo to determine where the player needs to run in this fight.

 

Thanks again for playing through and sharing your thoughts!

[Rykzeon]

3 hours ago, Large Cat said:

Uh oh! Could you tell me where this is happening and what version of DSDA Doom you're running?

It's most likely my computer fault rather than some map bug because my computer doesn't fully support opengl.

[azerty]

Sorry I am kinda late. Sorry that I can't provide a video I usually do nut the gameplay would be bad and I played this in 3 parts before ending this so it would be a hassle to upload all that to youtube.

Now onto the map. I was very nice to say it short. The fights were very hard and super frustrating but I had a very weird feeling while playing. Even though I kept dying I could see an end or a solution to the fight which gave me hope to continue on. It's a feeling you don't get often while playing. Usually you just get frustrated and each time you die you get more desperate because you have no idea how to continue on. It felt very nice and that really kept me going thru those fights. The last fight was very hard but I fought my way thru.... eventually. 

The map itself also looked very nice and if this is your first map well then you were born to make maps lol. I don't really have much else to say it's very difficult to find something to complain about which is good but I don't feel like I am being super helpful.

I have seen some incredible feedback from you. From either the jimmy server or from here on DW you have been very helpful to people so if you make a new map I'll gladly play it. I hope this map gets some more attention.

[CoolerDoomeR]

On 1/11/2022 at 4:24 AM, Large Cat said:

As a fledgling mapper, I am looking for some feedback on my first ever map release. It's a single map with a series of difficult arenas, positioned around a central hub. The arenas focus on tightly choreographed combat, usually in cramped spaces. Although there are large numbers of monsters in total, no individual fight amounts to slaughter gameplay, in my experience. To keep combat "to the point," there is no opposition between arenas; all fights come in discrete chunks. Hopefully, this will provide clear times to save the game during a casual playthrough. The intended difficulty is harder than Ancient Aliens or Valiant, but easier than the last third of Scythe 2. There are 270-370 monsters in the regular portion of the map, which seems to take people around an hour to complete with saves. The final fight adds another 400-450 monsters, but it will go by much faster than the rest of the map.

 

I have just added the more slaughter-focused optional final fight. It's "optional" in the sense that you can easily walk past it without any negative effects; it's just there for those who have a hankering for maximum demonic rampage. If the regular part of the map proves too tiring, you can just clock out early and skip this battle. If you would like to skip to this final battle, I included this fight alone in the MAP02 slot, allowing you to skip the rest of the buildup. Difficulty-wise, a slaughter aficionado will probably beat it more easily than the hardest fights of the rest of the map, but those less than skilled in crowd manipulation may get swarmed.

 

I strongly encourage starting on HNTR or HMP difficulty, as UV can get very grindy without precise play and proper routing. I would also like to get feedback on difficulties other than UV. My hope is that the lower difficulties keep the spirit and energy of UV while being more forgiving.

 

I will keep the most up-to-date version here:

 

saltv8.zip

 

Any feedback on any part of the map is much appreciated, and I will keep an eye on this topic for anyone who has thoughts about what they like or how I could alter the map to maximize its potential. I would especially like any thoughts regarding the final fight, as it it brand new and hasn't received any public attention. It's outside my normal playstyle, so I'd appreciate thoughts about the new final battle from someone more experienced with slaughter gameplay. You can skip to MAP02 to jump straight to the final fight.

 

Some screenshots:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Some info about the map:

• IWAD: Doom II
• Content: One map, in the MAP01 slot (and just the final battle in the MAP02 slot)
• Map Format: Boom (-complevel 9 or strict boom compatibility)
• Tested with PrBoom+ 2.5.1.5 and GZDoom. Should also work with derived ports (e.g. DSDA Doom or Zandronum), as well as any other boom-compatible port.
• The map is tested without advanced features like freelook, jumping and crouching, so these are not recommended.
• Other info should be included in the attached text file (though let me know if missed something!).

 

Changelog:

  Reveal hidden contents

Changes for version 8

• Changed telegraphing for initial fork entering the mine
• Fixed difficulty settings for two megaspheres
• Small nodebuilding tweaks
• Added map title and background to intermission screen
• Added intermission music
• Added new plasma gun sound

 

Changes for version 7

• Added a second track and MUSINFO lump
• Changed sky to nighttime (from TNT ep2)
• Added a new palette, changing green ranges to muted blue
• Green armor is now purple to distinguish from megaarmor
• Added optional final fight

 

Changes for version 6

• Fixed some miscellaneous visual bugs
• Made AV jumping out of the red key area harder
• Further alterations to blue salt and intro

 

Changes for version 5

• Added monster-blocking lines to the monsters on pillars in the SSG fight and red door fight
• Unstuck the hell knight in the shotgun room on HMP
• Increased soulsphere secret visibility
• Added lighting to the exit switches in the plasma room
• Simplified exiting the yellow key room on HMP and UV
• Made blue salt piles easier to activate
• Removed damaging floors in rocket launcher area
• Added lighting to step-raising switches in red key room
• Highlighted cyberdemon with BFG
• Lowered rocket launcher fight intensity on HMP
• Staggered archvile entry in blue key fight
• Made blue salt intro more aggressive
• Added more cell ammo on HNTR and HMP
• Added more armor on HNTR and HMP

 

With luck, I'll be able to get some feedback, make some changes as needed, then upload to idgames! Thanks to everyone who plays this map, and double thanks to those who share their experience!

Good job, it's good!

[ScrappyMcDoogerton]

Hey so I decided I should play this map again since it's gotten so many updates since the last time I played it and I was very curious about the new fight you've been hyping up.

 

The main chunk of the map that I already played through went pretty similar as before, it was just a little easier this time since I already knew how to handle each section. Knowing about the blue salt giving health was also helpful, and I really like this mechanic as it gives the map a unique flavor. I am still not a fan of the room with the moving computers and the elite chaingunners teleporting right into your face, it tends to devolve into spamming plasma with a red-covered screen hoping for the best. Also the two fights in the central area are a little awkward, with unsure footing and monsters crowding you into tight, uncomfortable areas. These are minor complaints though because once you reach the MAXIMUM DEMONIC RAMPAGE you forget all about those small quibbles.

 

WOW! You nailed it! In my opinion this fight has everything good about slaughter, while avoiding the common pitfalls of slaughter maps. The fight ramps up slowly, keeping the player alert for the next incoming barrage. The monster composition and the structure of the arena disallow circle-strafe-to-win tactics, With a tower of Arch-viles on one side, and a constant stream of fodder coming in from the other. The ammo distribution is also just right, with a few cell packs to get you through the worst of it but requiring you to also lean on the abundance of rockets provided. Also it's a feast for the eyes It's almost jarring the step up visually from the rest of the map.

 

Here's a screenshot of the end of my run as a tip of my hat for your efforts XD

 

Spoiler

 

[Large Cat]

The map is now officially up on idgames! Huge thanks to everyone who played the map leading up to its release. I'll keep the OP mostly intact for historical purposes, and if anyone else has anything they'd like to share, I'd love to hear it.

[CoolerDoomeR]

It's cool!

Good job.

[Hamash]

Thank you very much for your hard work, I played it and it took me like 3 hours to finish it, I died too much but thanks god I finished it at last :D, Love it, Thank you