What if Doom 2 was a fan-made wad?

[Geqoph]

So what if ID software, after finishing Doom 1, created, let's say... TNT instead of the Doom 2 we know and love. If someone released the current Doom 2 levels as a fan-made mappack, would the community view it possitively? Or would it be considered a bad wad by the standards of TNT evilution (TNT being the official Doom sequel mapset in this alternate world).

[Azuris]

It would have been considered great, as the Release was so close and it had new Monsters and the Super Shotgun

[Matthias]

Hard to say, but I was always fascinated by the fact, the most games have the official maps made in professional style, while the community maps are usually more amateurish, while for Doom 2 it's quite the opposite - the original Doom 2 are very experimental and gimmicky (especially Petersen's maps like Barrels of Fun, Crusher etc), while many community maps are more pro :)

 

If you said Doom 2 is a community megawad and I didn't know anything about Doom, I might actually believe it.

[Professor Hastig]

The one thing that's abundantly clear about Doom 2 is that there was no attempt at a theme and very little guidelines of how the maps in each episode should present themselves so in a way it feels a lot like a random-32-level megawad, not like a real game.

 

One of the amazing things with Doom is that even back in 1994 some of the early episodes for Doom 1 had more polish than the actual game. I wonder what might have happened, had some of these people been hired to make Doom 2's maps.

[D4NUK1]

I would be praised not for the visuals or the story but only for having a better combat flow than TNT. Then we would make Doom 2 expansions.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

 

Wink

[TasAcri]

The SSG and new monsters alone would elevate it to classic status.

 

The maps themselves not so much but eh, they would be considered fine.

[Herr Dethnout]

It would win a cacoward.

["JL" was too short]

People are saying it would be considered good because of the new monsters, but I'm not sure why they're assuming that id wouldn't already have made the new monsters.  The hypothetical, remember, is "id releases TNT instead of Doom 2"-- and TNT, of course, had all the Doom 2 monsters in it.  So I'm assuming the question is basically about levels and to a lesser extent textures.

 

And in that case, I think it gets judged at best as being of inconsistent quality and mediocre on average with a number of decent standouts.  You know, like Doom 2's levels are.  TNT doesn't have uniformly great levels either, but where TNT's levels are bad it's usually because of being overly complex and obtuse rather than just looking amateurish.

[Geqoph]

5 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

People are saying it would be considered good because of the new monsters, but I'm not sure why they're assuming that id wouldn't already have made the new monsters.  The hypothetical, remember, is "id releases TNT instead of Doom 2"-- and TNT, of course, had all the Doom 2 monsters in it.  So I'm assuming the question is basically about levels and to a lesser extent textures.

 

And in that case, I think it gets judged at best as being of inconsistent quality and mediocre on average with a number of decent standouts.  You know, like Doom 2's levels are.  TNT doesn't have uniformly great levels either, but where TNT's levels are bad it's usually because of being overly complex and obtuse rather than just looking amateurish.

Yes, I was talking about it as just a mappack, but imagining that it also featured a ton of new monsters and a new weapon is also quite interesting

[Lucius Wooding]

What if they released Mock 2 instead of Doom 2 and all jokewads thereafter were Chex Quest based?

[Plut]

I really dislike Doom 2 and think that pretty much all the levels are terrible, I hate the dirty, boring and "rotten" feel that the levels have. Ultimate Doom is far superior in my opinion in everything except combat. I can't help but feel that if Doom 2 was a fanmade megawad it would be considered irrelevant garbage made by a bunch of amateurs. But I love the new monsters (especially the archvile!) and the SSG which makes the combat much quicker and less tedious.

[banjiepixel]

5 hours ago, Professor Hastig said:

The one thing that's abundantly clear about Doom 2 is that there was no attempt at a theme and very little guidelines of how the maps in each episode should present themselves so in a way it feels a lot like a random-32-level megawad, not like a real game.

 

Why does a Doom game need a consisten theme for it's episodes? The game is a glorified maze game where levels work like dungeons in RPG's and randomness just makes it feel more like a actual videogame instead of being more of a story. More abstract nature of Doom II literally one of those things that makes me like it more than Doom I.

 

Doom II feels to me more like a real game than most of the modern megawads or the new Doom games.  I don't play video games for immersion. I play for the game mechanics and the challenge.

[Drywtler]

I mean, Doom 2 In Name Only exists

[Berubaretto]

If it was released after Memento Mori and some other community wads, it might be reviewed not so positively. But if it was released soon after 1994, it would be still a fine megawad. TNT has some levels that not so good, anyway.

[Fadri]

An arrow telling you where to go? Zero out of ten.

[esselfortium]

Well, it's a lot better than TNT...

[Individualised]

6 hours ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

 

Wink

You can still press the button in MAP01 after it has been lowered. This is hilarious though, thanks for posting this.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Individualised

[xScavengerWolfx]

2 hours ago, Fadri said:

An arrow telling you where to go? Zero out of ten.

*slowly backing away since i've done this sin before in my maps*

 

[Fadri]

42 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

*slowly backing away since i've done this sin before in my maps* 

 

Don't worry, you can still make arrows out of health or armor bonuses, that was done in Doom Episode 1, so it can't be critiqued.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Fadri

[xScavengerWolfx]

35 minutes ago, Fadri said:

Don't worry, you can still make arrows out of health or armor bonuses, that was done in Doom Episode 1, so it can't be critiqued.

Oh trust me, when i was doing episode 1 of my ultimate doom wad (i am currently working on episode 3) E1M1 i had an arrow pointing to where to go to progress and some one pointed it out and said "Oh god an arrow! 0/10 bad mapping design! lol" But i do use arrows but i try to hide them the best i can in order for the player to figure out what to do.

[banjiepixel]

10 minutes ago, xScavengerWolfx said:

Oh trust me, when i was doing episode 1 of my ultimate doom wad (i am currently working on episode 3) E1M1 i had an arrow pointing to where to go to progress and some one pointed it out and said "Oh god an arrow! 0/10 bad mapping design! lol" But i do use arrows but i try to hide them the best i can in order for the player to figure out what to do.

 

Real fun starts when you first condition people to follow arrows and then start to punish them for doing it. By playing with player expetations "mapping fail" becomes actually terrifying tool to make the player doubt any arrow they will see in the future.

[Lucius Wooding]

It's funny since I use arrows in a different way entirely. I keep an eye out for their mention in any kind of review or critique so I know to completely discredit it.

[Noiser]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:20 PM, xScavengerWolfx said:

*slowly backing away since i've done this sin before in my maps*

 

There's nothing wrong in putting arrows or whatever in your maps as a way of helping the player out.

People started to mock this on Doom 2 because of Civvie, which I would not take seriously imo. It's also important to note that the arrow shape is less visible on 320x200, being more noticeable on automap than anything else.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Noiser

[xScavengerWolfx]

33 minutes ago, Noiser said:

There's not any problem in putting arrows or whatever in your maps as a way of helping the player out.

People started to mock this on Doom 2 because of Civvie, which I would not take seriously imo. It's also important to note that the arrow shape is less visible on 320x200, being more noticeable on automap than anything else.

Ah yes, good ol' civvie 11. Still one of my favorite youtubers. But yes i make jokes about putting arrows in my maps because it's too "hand holding" for some

 

[SealSpace]

I don't know much about TNT and those other expansion map-packs (haven't gotten into them yet)...

 

but if Doom 2 was a fan-made wad, it would probably be seen as a very simplistic and watered down version of the real thing, yet somehow accessible enough to be enjoyed by newcomers. 

[Maximum Matt]

Habitat would be Chasm.

[ReaperAA]

11 hours ago, esselfortium said:

Well, it's a lot better than TNT...

 

Arguable. I think TNT at its worst is worse than Doom 2 at its worst. But I find TNT's highs to be better than Doom 2's high points

[Professor Hastig]

14 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

 

Why does a Doom game need a consisten theme for it's episodes? The game is a glorified maze game where levels work like dungeons in RPG's and randomness just makes it feel more like a actual videogame instead of being more of a story. More abstract nature of Doom II literally one of those things that makes me like it more than Doom I.

 

 

Doom 2 has always been a major disappointment for me, because the overall level design made it very clear that the effort spent on them wasn't what the game deserved. This was called "Hell on Earth", but the one thing I never got out of it was to see 'Earth' being invaded because nothing looked like earth

I have played countless shooters in the late 90's and 2000's, but Doom 2 always stood out at the one game that never managed to convey a sense of place. Like you said, it's just random mazes without any logic attached. In that way it is quite unique, but it's also the reason why I do not like it.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Professor Hastig

[ReaperAA]

14 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

Doom II feels to me more like a real game than most of the modern megawads or the new Doom games.  I don't play video games for immersion. I play for the game mechanics and the challenge.

 

TBF, many modern megawads do offer more than Doom2.wad when it comes to challenge and gameplay mechanics

 

41 minutes ago, Professor Hastig said:

I have played countless shooters in the late 90's and 2000's, but Doom 2 always stood out at the one game that never managed to convey a sense of place. Like you said, it's just random mazes without any logic attached.

 

*cough* Marathon 1 *cough*