I just realized that I literally never use SSG anymore

[maxmanium]

That's not only inefficient with respect to time, but to ammo as well... you get 1.5x more pellets per round than with the shotgun.

[riktoi]

Yo fellow gamers! As a savvy zoomer gamer, I gotta drop some straight-up truth bombs about the DOOM 2 shotgun. Let me just say, it's straight-up trash and ain't worth using in any situation.

First of all, let's talk about its damage output. Yeah sure, it might seem like it hits hard at first glance, but let's be real – it's just not enough to take down most enemies in one shot. And if you're facing tougher enemies like demons or bosses, forget about it. You're better off using a different weapon altogether.

Plus, let's not forget about the range on this thing. It's laughable. You gotta get up close and personal with enemies to use it effectively, which is just asking for trouble. You're putting yourself at risk of getting pummeled by their attacks while you're trying to get in close and blast them. It's just not worth the risk.

And speaking of risk, let's talk about the reload time on this bad boy. It takes forever to reload and you're completely vulnerable while doing so. Ain't nobody got time for that when you're trying to take down hordes of demons and stay alive.

Overall, the DOOM 2 shotgun is just not a viable choice in any situation. If you're looking for a weapon that hits hard and has decent range, there are better options out there like the chaingun or rocket launcher. And if you really want to get up close and personal with enemies, your fists or chainsaw are more fun and effective anyways.

So there you have it, fellow zoomers. Don't waste your time with the DOOM 2 shotgun – it's just useless and unviable. Stick to better weapons and keep slaying those demons like the badass gamers we are. Peace out!

[Csucskos]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:49 PM, Griffonki said:

Can you give me some of those punishing maps? I want to play them and try to beat them without SSG. :D

I dunno what are you playing currently with this strat. :/ But Schyte 2 or Speed of Doom is considered to be intermediate so it's a good starting point... or you can give my wads a try ;)

[banjiepixel]

23 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Except that it takes very good footwork and use of the environment to use the SSG effectively against higher tier enemies due to the long reload time. Yes it does mow through lower tier enemies, but so what? It's not like they are usually much more than canon fodder anyway.

 

But that's kinda my whole point, in my opinion SSG should be more of a backup for the Doom 1 weapons instead of being so often the show stealer.

 

23 hours ago, Murdoch said:

As to everything else you said, just because some people don't use the arsenal effectively and efficiently doesn't negate any of the points I raised in debunking what you said. If you don't like the SSG, don't use it. Simple. Let people play however they see fit. That's the beauty of a game like Doom - there's often many ways to approach a given situation.

 

People can play however they want, my goal is simply helping players to improve their overall skillset and something like nerfing SSG would help with that goal, just like alot of the other things I want to change to improve the Doom gameplay and make it communicate the intended playing style better to the player.

 

23 hours ago, Murdoch said:

10/10 sarcasm. He is displaying some quite contemptible arrogance in his statements.

 

It's seem to be pretty common that people with autistic tendencies are seen being arrogant when it's not actually the case. It is actually pretty demoralizing when you just want genuinely help and give advice, it's seen being arrogant and judgemental. I also have alot of problems detecting sarcasm and jokes, which probably explains why I probably just managed make a fool of myself in this discussion.

 

This thread clearly isn't meant for me so I will leave.

[Murdoch]

2 hours ago, banjiepixel said:

It's seem to be pretty common that people with autistic tendencies are seen being arrogant when it's not actually the case. It is actually pretty demoralizing when you just want genuinely help and give advice, it's seen being arrogant and judgemental. I also have alot of problems detecting sarcasm and jokes, which probably explains why I probably just managed make a fool of myself in this discussion.

 

OK well then given those circumstances I will apologise for being so harsh. I can get a bit triggered sometimes when certain things come across a certain way, and probably overdid it a bit in this discussion.

[banjiepixel]

Just now, Murdoch said:

 

OK well then given those circumstances I will apologise for being so harsh. I can get a bit triggered sometimes when certain things come across a certain way, and probably overdid it a bit in this discussion.

 

No need to apologise, atleast in this case. I appreciate it greatly but also I do not expect people to apologise for not knowing or understanding the unusual context that is basis for the posts I make. And in many ways being harsh to be can be good thing when dealing with me because so much of my own behaviour is just being brutally honest. And it does seem like alot of my brutal honesty can come off as being rude and arrogant to most people.

 

I am trying to improve but it takes alot of work because I the context where regular people exists in is for the most part unknown and foreign to me. I guess I have just to keep banging my head against the wall until I figure it out. I also hope that making posts like this for future reference can help the communication too.

 

I just really want that someone can take atleast something I say in good faith and finds that thing to be useful information. Everything I have posted in this thread has been in good faith and are things I even at this point fully believe to be true. I feel like I have explained now myself to an acceptable degree so I am making my final exit from this thread with this post.

[Griffonki]

On 8/22/2023 at 4:51 PM, GarrettChan said:

I like how people can make up many reasons to defend the SG, which is one of the worst weapons in the game. Can't reliably kill one Imp in 1 shot; can't reliably kill one Chaingunner in 1 shot; can't reliably kill one Demon in 2 shots.

 

Doom 2 UV is easy as heck. Not using SSG and being able to beat it is not a thing that you should talk about.

 

I assume OP likes to circle strafing with SG and kill PEs and AVs for some odd reason, but I don't.

 

EDIT: I didn't realize somebody is the 180 key guy, so more power to the thread I guess :)

I do in fact like to kill arch viles with regular shotgun, yes.

[Griffonki]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:43 PM, Decay said:

Damn you guys with the walls of text for a joke thread are competing with OP for #1 time killer.

I legit didn't expect a wall of text I just wanted to know if anyone else is like me lol, only thing I took from here is that I should in fact use SSG a lot more.

[OniriA]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:06 AM, banjiepixel said:

 

Whole basic combat of Doom is based of there being two different types of weapons split into two tiers. You have your chaingun and shotgun for weak enemies and plasmagun and rocketlauncher for strong enemies. Chaingun and plasmagun are always a very safe choice when you are against a crowd of monsters, especially in tight spaces while shotgun and rocketlauncher are more risky and work better with smaller groups of monsters and/or in bigger spaces. If there ever is an opening, it is always good idea to switch weapons during combat based on what is optimal for the situation.

 

SSG does however mess up this system by being able to be used pretty much as just slightly less optimal choice in place of any of these 4 weapons. SSG has pretty much it's own weapon tier based on how it sits right in between weapons meant for weak enemies and weapons meant for strong enemies and can pretty easily do both roles.

 

We had already more powerful shotgun in Doom 1, it's the rocketlauncher, just like plasmagun is more powerful chaingun. SSG is actually closer to having a role of weaker BFG but happens to be too overpowered and is way too useful in way too many situations instead of improving the weapon balance and having more unique purpose that complements the rest of the weapons. The damage output of SSG is generally fine, but it just needs to be slower and more risky to use to stop the player from overusing it. SSG was done in the way that is bad design and sadly we are now stuck with it. Player needs self-restraint to use it in a way that doesn't ruin the weapon balance and make especially the regular shotgun almost useless.

 

And learn your weapon switching skills, kids. It's basically best reason to slow down and take a tiny break from attacking when facing monsters using projectiles just like needing to use cover against hitscanners gives you reason to take a little break. It adds more variety to the combat and the brief moment being defenceless during the switch in a high stress situation can be very exciting. It is a risk but things get just so satisfying when your skills develop to make those risks worth taking.

 

On 8/22/2023 at 5:58 AM, Lucius Wooding said:

 

Yeah somehow even though I tire of this same thread I still feel the need to point out the same arguments I have before. A big part of this fallacy seems to come from people playing Doom 1 and 2 over and over rather than moving on to harder maps with different combat where weapon usage matters. Doom 1+2 really lack many aspects of advanced combat and are extremely basic in their expectations of the player, so there's nothing punishing non optimal play whatsoever. I'm not even referring to slaughtery maps with high monster counts as the new standard, just moderately difficult WADs will do much more to pressure the player where they can't literally circle strafe and bully everything.

 

-I find Doom 1 and 2 both lack true long range combat. So the pellet spread means fuckall because you're rarely more than 200 units away from things unless you choose and the chaingun exists and has higher DPS than the shotgun. Aside from a couple instances in city maps maybe, you're never out of range of auto aim and fighting monsters at long distances is always optional and not DPS intensive (ie you don't need to take down a lot of HP worth of monsters this way, maybe a couple sniping low tiers). Part of this is due to technical limitations on big maps that aren't needed in modern maps. Even something like Plutonia map 29 is absolutely mammoth compared to Doom 1+2. Therefore the SSG is almost always a viable weapon because its main weakness (range) just doesn't apply to most combat in Doom 2.

 

-The SSG's other flaw is rate of fire, which as @Ravendesk points out is cancelled out with good movement and the openness of many maps. You can even benefit from cover a lot easier than any other weapon and limit your exposure to crossfire while darting out for optimal damage once your shot is ready. Even the single barrel is a bit quick for this and you barely benefit from the cover. For hitscan, being unable to fire is mitigated by the use of cover, against projectile flingers you should barely ever get hit anyway, and against certain melee units like revenants and pinkies, you can simply bait their melee indefinitely between shots. The only time the reload really punishes you is when you're highly exposed in a target rich environment with barely any space to move, which is very rare in Doom 2 and usually 1 SSG blast will open up a hole in those situations.

 

-The rockets and plasma don't really need to be used in the first 2 IWADs, except off the top of my head in Tower of Babel and some of E4. Every other map I can think of is fine to primarily use SG/SSG/Chaingun if you choose, and there are so many shells and few crowded encounters that nothing punishes you. This does not mean it's wise or practical to limit yourself like this when playing other WADs; even much of Final Doom will force you to rotate (or anticipate) weapons to deal with the tougher fights in a way Doom 2 doesn't. This is because strategy barely matters in the original games as long as you're remotely competent. So I don't see why you'd really need to switch weapons mid fight in Doom 2 honestly like Banjie is saying. There are harder maps where you need to use other weapons to juggle threats but Doom 2 will not punish you for having the SSG out for the entire game, and running out of shells is extremely rare.

 

-Doom 1 not only lacks heavier monsters overall, it also tends to make fights out of a trickle of low tiers, many times it's 1 monster at a time. This is where the regular shotgun is suited pretty much perfectly since chaingun ammo is a bit less abundant and few heavier monsters than pinkies are encountered. The arguments against the SSG fall apart in Doom 2 and harder WADs, not only because of bulkier monsters being a common thing, but you're frequently fighting multiple monsters at a time and dealing damage to crowds rather than single low tiers. So the spread and higher DPS of the SSG is actually a lot better than the slight fire rate advantage in those situations.

 

-To add to the above, Doom 1 (aside from parts of E4) treats cacos and barons like mini bosses and usually gives you a big arena without much distraction. Most of the time it's one or two of these monsters that don't pressure you in any meaningful way if you're not a fireball magnet. So kiting while shotgunning them 15 times is perfectly fine albeit tedious. In Doom 2 it's a lot more common to encounter multiple heavies per fight and to face multiple fronts which is a big reason the SSG comes in handy (*although it's still so forgiving in terms of space, health available, and threat level that the regular shotty can still manage everything if you're determined). Try fighting a pair of pain elementals with the single barrel sometime. You'll be obliterated unless you can camp behind cover and the lost soul cleanup will be a chore. Try the ammo conservation argument when every shot allows a lost soul to spawn in between and the other PE is free to spam all the time as you're dealing with the first, while the SSG will kill reliably in 3 shots and even damage them when they're meatshielded by lost souls. The DPS difference will result in far fewer spawns and I bet you'd use half the shells in a setup like this with the SSG. It's telling that Doom 2 barely even uses them, let alone multiple at once, because they demand high DPS and cause more problems the longer they take to kill. Obviously the chaingun will stunlock them but they're one of the few true dynamic threats in the Doom 2 roster and very underused in the base games compared to custom maps, similar to archviles. Speaking of which, archviles also need to die quickly with the higher DPS to prevent resurrecting meatshields, and the added pain chance also comes in clutch. Even a single one with the wrong corpses around spells big trouble for the SG. And Doom 2 absolutely babies the player when it comes to archviles compared to custom maps.

 

-Ammo conservation is better served with berserk, infighting, using pacifist strats, not missing shots, and efficient use of AOE weapons. In Doom 1+2 there's really no need to save ammo anyway, even on pistol starts. You also have 3 other ammo types if shells are so precious to you. In the situations where the regular shotgun is actually more ammo efficient than the SSG it's far more practical to use chaingun, plasma and rockets. It's a self imposed need, not something actually dictated widely by the maps.

 

-Try playing Nightmare on Doom 2 sometime without using the SSG. Just try it. You think it's fine to have a lot lower DPS and take twice as long to kill stuff when it can respawn in 12 seconds? Run into a baron or other high HP monster and you'll barely even kill one in the time it can trigger a respawn behind you unless you're lucky with the timer. Getting everything pertinent to be dead in the same time window is the key on nightmare, and the regular shotty sucks at quickly clearing a room. Plus pinkies become an absolute menace. Your SSG will reliably kill them but the SG failing to do so at a bad moment will result in 3 bites and death in the time it takes to reload. It's not very viable to bait their melee to stall them either, it's way tougher on NM to time it properly and very punishing to miss. Suddenly rockets and plasma are your best friend and having double the amount of shells available does nothing whatsoever to help. Taking splash damage from rockets becomes worth it many times to kill things quickly. And yes, there are a few sections where it's worth it to go slowly with the regular shotty against hitscan, but it's not going to cut the mustard when you need to push through tough rooms.

 

-The idea that the game balance is spoiled by the SSG's traits isn't really true either. Nobody said the weapons need to be perfectly balanced or never replaced by better options. There's nothing wrong with having an OP weapon or two and I'd say it's more on the mappers in Doom 2 for not pushing the boundaries of combat to where the other weapons are remotely necessary. Had they included more traps where you need the right weapon out to survive, like Plutonia and many others often do, or force you to use rockets or cells to get enough DPS to push back the waves, people in 1995 wouldn't be able to handle it. So they made the original game a lot more forgiving and coddled people who have the habit of keeping SSG out all the time by placing heaps of shells and using restraint with monster placements. Custom maps are often bitched about when they enforce good weapon usage, say what you want, but at least they show the SSG's limitations better and make use of the high tier guns. So it's not really OP except in easy maps with lots of shells, like nearly all of Doom 2. It's the lack of variety in situations that makes it OP so maybe play other maps. If you want to nerf the SSG, it's a lot more practical to just place very few shells (or more bullets) rather than lower the rate of fire IMO. It's the shotty that needs a buff, not the other way around. I've played WADs with some very fun shotguns that used a higher rate of fire for the single barrel; it eats ammo but becomes a very practical weapon. 

 

-The rocket launcher is not a more powerful shotgun, what the hell are you talking about? If you use the rocket launcher like a shotgun you'll instantly blow yourself up. That's unique as a tradeoff with other weapons in exchange for having very good DPS and being a great long range and AOE gun. Additionally, I've never managed to kill any monsters with AOE around corners using either shotgun or take advantage of infinite height splash damage or the nigh infinite range with no spread projectiles have. Projectiles and hitscan also aren't the same, with travel time and projectile collision playing a subtle role to differentiate them. Shooting through small holes will waste a projectile while allowing hitscan to pass through, and projectiles also have more forgiveness due to their width and no spread, only auto aim. Try hitstunning a revenant with the chaingun vs the plasma for example; even though the plasma is much higher DPS and rate of fire, it also is a lot less likely to allow retaliation since the projectile is wider than hitscan. And the BFG has some key differences from the SSG: the projectile alone is much higher damage on average, and the tracers are uniquely a super wide hitscan attack where every single one auto aims. The SSG and SG pellets don't do this, they have a cone and horizontal spread respectively and the entire spread auto aims around one target.

 

-And finally I'd like to say, I get it. The SSG being the sole weapon is extremely boring sometimes. So people want to root for the underdog and crave some variety. But the single barrel is neglected not due to poor taste by the player base, but rather because it isn't the best choice in a vast majority of situations where you almost always have multiple better options in Doom 2. If you want this lack of use to change, consider making maps that are built around the single barrel as the primary weapon (hint: spam explosive barrels), don't place an SSG, or use Doom 1 as the WAD. Or if you prefer you can use some balance patching to change the weapon meta. Explore the types of encounters and terrain design that can make fights uniquely favor the SG and bring them into the world if that's your preferred style. They exist, and I've often enjoyed slower paced maps/sections or ones where you're forced to make do with lower damage against archviles and the like by scrambling. I won't say the single barrel has no uses but honestly the contrarian insistence that it's good compared to the other weapons is crazy. Play how you want but don't feel the need to justify it because the arguments are shaky. 

 

On 8/22/2023 at 12:04 PM, Kinetic said:

everyone's making some really solid points here, pretty cool to see how everyone has their own individual approaches to making the game fun for them and some people even pointing out flaws in doom's weapon balance.

 

While I think the SSG vs. SG debate is very nuanced, I think the pistol is a weapon that is actually being overshadowed by both the SSG and SG when really it's pretty useful in a ton of scenarios.

 

1) starting weapon, always trusty and reliable loaded with 50 bullets, never have to worry about not having it. Do you think doomguy starts with his pistol out for no reason? he knows what it's capable of, that's why he never leaves home without it.

2) first shot is always perfectly accurate, making it a better sniping weapon than even the SG

3) the pistol has a very short reload time, so you'll spend less time reloading and more time ripping and tearing, maybeee less fun if you enjoy taking long breaks between shots to plot out whether you should shoot again or not and to take breaks from the action, but also arguably more fun since you can rip and tear quicker without having to wait for reload as long as SSG or SG

4) it's a very efficient weapon, you will rarely waste as much ammunition or damage with it compared to SSG or SG. Don't think so? Let's say ur fighting a pinky, which has 150 health, if you use SSG, which does roughly 200 damage on average, you're wasting a LOT of pellets. 50 damage worth. Is the pinky truly worth 1 SSG blast? no, it's worth less. If you use SG, which does roughly 60 damage on average, you're gonna be wasting 30 damage, also a lot. It might take 3 SG to kill a pinky at times, when really it can take 2 with damage rng variance, but you have no say in that. However, if you use pistol, which does like 10 damage on average, you won't be wasting more than 5-10 damage on the kill shot, maybe you won't waste any damage at all. Thus, it's best to use pistol to truly conserve ammo.

5) 4) is magnified against even weaker mobs, many may think to use SG against single shotgunners (although you might find it fun to kill a shotgunner with its own weapon :D) and zombie guys, but again pistol is far superior, will waste much less damage against these enemies (+ if you use pistol against zombie guys, you are STILL killing them with their own weapon anyways. bonus!)

6) The pistol's lack of DPS may bore some, but it actually helps train players on patience, shot placement, and the previously eluded to ammo management. The SSG and SG generally encourage faster and more rushed play, which can lead to many errors, the pistol is almost like a nice set of training wheels for patience and slowing the game down, which will lead you to making fewer errors in combat.

7) In the speedrunning category of tyson, pistol is allowed to be used, while SSG and SG are disqualified unless they are bound to weapons 1 or 2, which almost never happens. Many of the most difficult and insane tysons could not have been done without the pistol, and these are the best of the best players showing how viable the weapon can be. I would suggest studying these tysons closely, the gameplay from these top tyson players is pretty action packed and will show you how strategically pistol is used. You may want to pause and rewatch these tyson demos several times to get a better handle on the value of the pistol and its functionality in a myriad of high level situations. 

8) If you're out of shells, you probably haven't been using a ton of bullets, pistol is always nice to fall back on in this scenario.

9) Sometimes you may encounter some mini puzzles or sequences in doom which require you to shoot switches in quick succession before they close themselves off, such as in Noye Map24 (NoYe was recently completed in a full-game run by @Meowgi, give him some love and watch the demo all the way through!). The pistol is highly effective for this, since its low reload time, low cost of ammo, make it far superior to the SSG and SG for these situations. Meowgi actually expertly uses the pistol for just that in his speedrun, and he's one of the top players in the world.

10) The pistol is actually a fairly useful weapon for performing some precise setups for either tricks or platforming jumps, since the tip of it or the sight or whatever on it is pretty much centered perfectly in the middle of the screen when standing still, so if you line the end of it up with a corner or edge of a wall or floor or something, you know you are facing directly down that edge or towards that corner. Again, this is high level play where the pistol is preferred over SSG or SG.

 

Give the pistol its props, when all is said and done, it's old reliable, better than you think or know, and is consistently used by some of the very top players who know more about weapon viability than anyone. When wads try to replace the pistol with something different, it typically messes up the balance that it provides, so I wouldn't recommend doing that if you're starting on making a new wad and want weapon modifications. some say it's underpowered, but the top players know how to bring the most out of it, and you can too.

 

good luck doom marines

 

On 8/23/2023 at 12:13 AM, Meowgi said:

Since we seem to be using this thread to practice our creative writing skills, I wrote a 1000 word essay on why the normal shotgun is better than the SSG:
 

Introduction

 

In the realm of video games, certain weapons become iconic symbols of a franchise, resonating deeply with players. DOOM 2: Hell on Earth, a game celebrated for its relentless action and innovative gameplay, introduces two quintessential shotguns: the normal shotgun and the super shotgun. While the super shotgun's raw power often takes center stage, it is essential to acknowledge the distinct advantages and timeless charm that the normal shotgun brings to the table. This essay delves into why the normal shotgun, despite the allure of its more powerful counterpart, remains superior due to its historical significance, strategic versatility, unique characteristics, and the enduring satisfaction it offers to players.

 

1. Historical Significance

The normal shotgun, affectionately known as the "double-barreled shotgun," stands as a symbol of the original DOOM game, which revolutionized the first-person shooter genre. DOOM's inception in 1993 marked a turning point in video game history, and the normal shotgun was a cornerstone of that revolution. Its appearance in DOOM 2: Hell on Earth not only pays homage to its legendary predecessor but also ensures that players are rooted in the franchise's origins. This historical link resonates deeply with veteran players who cherish the memories of early DOOM titles.

 

2. Strategic Versatility

The normal shotgun's strength lies in its strategic versatility, making it an indispensable tool in the player's arsenal. DOOM 2 features a plethora of enemies with varying degrees of resilience and attack patterns. The normal shotgun strikes a delicate balance between power and precision, allowing players to engage foes both near and far with tact and accuracy. Its mid-range effectiveness ensures that players can tackle a wide spectrum of enemies while maintaining optimal mobility—a critical factor in DOOM's fast-paced combat.

Moreover, the normal shotgun encourages resource management and careful decision-making. The limited magazine size necessitates calculated shots, prompting players to assess whether the situation warrants the use of more powerful ammunition. This strategic depth adds an extra layer of engagement to the gameplay experience that the super shotgun, with its brute-force approach, may lack.

 

3. Distinctive Characteristics

A defining characteristic of the normal shotgun is its unique identity within the game. The weapon's distinct look, sound, and feel set it apart from the rest of the arsenal. The sharp crack of each shot and the satisfying recoil contribute to an immersive experience that draws players into the game's world. This individuality enhances the player's connection with the weapon, forging a sense of attachment that transcends mere functionality.

Additionally, the normal shotgun encourages players to master its firing mechanics, rewarding those who invest time in learning its nuances. The rhythmic pumping of the shotgun between shots adds an element of timing that skilled players can exploit to achieve maximum efficiency. This layer of intricacy provides a sense of personal achievement as players refine their skills and dominate the demon hordes.

 

4. Enduring Player Satisfaction

The satisfaction derived from using the normal shotgun is unparalleled, rooted in the inherent challenge it presents and the sense of accomplishment it bestows upon players. Landing a well-placed shot that obliterates an enemy or clears a room evokes a unique sense of accomplishment. The normal shotgun's measured power compels players to invest effort in their actions, fostering a deep sense of gratification with each successful encounter.

This enduring satisfaction extends beyond mere gameplay moments, impacting player perception and memory of the game. The moments of triumph that players experience when wielding the normal shotgun become an integral part of their DOOM narrative, contributing to an enriched, memorable gaming experience.

 

Conclusion

In the realm of DOOM 2: Hell on Earth, where powerful weaponry and relentless battles define the experience, the normal shotgun stands as a testament to the franchise's origins, strategic depth, distinctive identity, and lasting player satisfaction. While the super shotgun may entice players with its raw power, the normal shotgun's multifaceted strengths make it the superior choice for connoisseurs of DOOM's essence. Embracing tradition and the enduring appeal of this classic weapon enriches the DOOM experience, solidifying the normal shotgun's position as the unrivaled champion of DOOM 2: Hell on Earth.

 

Ok. Good to know.

Edited August 25, 2023 by OniriA

[GarrettChan]

1 hour ago, Griffonki said:

I do in fact like to kill arch viles with regular shotgun, yes.

You do yourself then, I don't :)

 

But how about PEs.

Edited August 25, 2023 by GarrettChan

[Griffonki]

Just now, GarrettChan said:

You do yourself then, I don't :)

 

But how about PEs.

I actually either SSG them or spam rockets at them I am NOT letting them spew out lost souls, PEs are like the one enemy that punishes me for wanting to feel cool slowly shotgunning things to death.

[GarrettChan]

Just now, Griffonki said:

I actually either SSG them or spam rockets at them I am NOT letting them spew out lost souls, PEs are like the one enemy that punishes me for wanting to feel cool slowly shotgunning things to death.

Oh, so you did indeed use SSG, so you're lying that you're not using it :)

[Griffonki]

1 minute ago, GarrettChan said:

Oh, so you did indeed use SSG, so you're lying that you're not using it :)

I never said that  I don't use it at all, I just meant that I don't use it as a workhorse, despite it being inefficient with ammo shells are very common it seems so I have fun using regular shotgun as my workhorse and staying circling in and out of midrange to hit demons, and to clarify I didn't make this thread to argue, SSG is OBVIOUSLY way better in most situations, just wanted to ask if anyone finds it more satisfying to slaughter demons with the regular shotgun yk? At least to me it feels satisfying despite it being outclassed in most circumstances.

[GarrettChan]

Then it's pretty funny that you don't use pistol for your own satisfaction.

Edited August 25, 2023 by GarrettChan

[Griffonki]

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

Then it's pretty funny that you don't use pistol for your own satisfaction.

I actually wanted to but I have a skill issue

[Griffonki]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:32 PM, Zulk RS said:

 

Well you can try the Hell Revealed maps and Alien Vendetta. Going Down on UV may also be somewhat "punishing"

I am playing Going Down on UV, it's hard and I think  I died like 30 times but it's great fun, even with regular shotgun. So far got to bad reception, will keep going.

[Zulk RS]

12 hours ago, Griffonki said:

I am playing Going Down on UV, it's hard and I think  I died like 30 times but it's great fun, even with regular shotgun. So far got to bad reception, will keep going.

I didn't play it shotgun only but I have beaten Going Down on UV (with saves and continuous because that's how I roll). It's really fun. Love Cyriak's mapping.

[Griffonki]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:53 AM, Zulk RS said:

I didn't play it shotgun only but I have beaten Going Down on UV (with saves and continuous because that's how I roll). It's really fun. Love Cyriak's mapping.

I didn't play shotgun only lmao just mostly shotgun instead of SSG

[Lucius Wooding]

10 minutes ago, Griffonki said:

I didn't play shotgun only lmao just mostly shotgun instead of SSG

 

Going Down is one of the meanest WADs, though it's still beatable. Great choice IMO.

 

Another interesting WAD would be Stardate 20X6 and 7. They're definitely quite hard (though not that many maps) and you probably want to drop down to HMP, especially for the harder maps. I don't even know if they use the regular shotgun much; I only recommend them because if your avatar is any indication, you're a purple enjoyer. They're both by Ribbiks who is a very well regarded mapper.

[Griffonki]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:00 AM, Lucius Wooding said:

 

Going Down is one of the meanest WADs, though it's still beatable. Great choice IMO.

 

Another interesting WAD would be Stardate 20X6 and 7. They're definitely quite hard (though not that many maps) and you probably want to drop down to HMP, especially for the harder maps. I don't even know if they use the regular shotgun much; I only recommend them because if your avatar is any indication, you're a purple enjoyer. They're both by Ribbiks who is a very well regarded mapper.

I am a purple enjoyer, but I don't know what that has to do with the WAD lol.

[philcul]

8 hours ago, Griffonki said:

I am a purple enjoyer, but I don't know what that has to do with the WAD lol.

 

Because the WAD is quite purple!

[Stroggman]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:43 AM, iDoT said:

On 8/20/2023 at 12:49 PM, Griffonki said:

For some reason, I find it more fun to circle strafe mid tiers and shotgun them to death instead of using super shotgun, does literally anyone else play like this or am I just mental?

The regular sg is a well rounded weapon, decent fire rate, good damage, can be used across almost all ranges of distance that you’re likely to find in a Doom map, and ammo capacity is relatively manageable. The added fact that shotgunners are walking ammo supply is a bonus as well. The small amount of shotgun shells from. A dropped shotgun or a cluster of 4 shells is far more useful than the 10 bullets you get from an ammo clip.

 

[Stroggman]

I tend to use the SSG in many different scenarios for many of the reasons outline above, as well as the satisfying sounds of the powerful blast, the crack of the barrels being opened, the loading of the shells and the snap of the barrels closing. 

But above all else, the confidence to be able to take on a baron or other heavy enemy in close quarters with a weapon that has the punch of the rocket launcher without the danger of splash damage? Sign me up.

[Griffonki]

On 8/29/2023 at 2:00 AM, Lucius Wooding said:

 

Going Down is one of the meanest WADs, though it's still beatable. Great choice IMO.

 

Another interesting WAD would be Stardate 20X6 and 7. They're definitely quite hard (though not that many maps) and you probably want to drop down to HMP, especially for the harder maps. I don't even know if they use the regular shotgun much; I only recommend them because if your avatar is any indication, you're a purple enjoyer. They're both by Ribbiks who is a very well regarded mapper.

I have been humbled by Going Down lmao, I started using SSG way way more now even outside it, guess Doom2 vanilla never challenged me enough to have to resort to it lol. I pray for the poor soul pistol starting Going Down

[No-Man Baugh]

3 minutes ago, Griffonki said:

I have been humbled by Going Down lmao, I started using SSG way way more now even outside it, guess Doom2 vanilla never challenged me enough to have to resort to it lol. I pray for the poor soul pistol starting Going Down

Good to know you've been turned to the dark side

 

I also started Going Down after beating Overboard (Another Moldy wad of 6 maps) and... well let's just say that I have a personal policy of playing megawads continuous if they have some kind of continuity or story between maps like Valiant and Demon Fear, and pistol starting wads if they're just a collection of separate maps that are far more self contained like DIY or the Community Chest series, and boy am I glad that Going Down has continuity

[Buhseo_]

16 hours ago, No-Man Baugh said:

Good to know you've been turned to the dark side

 

I also started Going Down after beating Overboard (Another Moldy wad of 6 maps) and... well let's just say that I have a personal policy of playing megawads continuous if they have some kind of continuity or story between maps like Valiant and Demon Fear, and pistol starting wads if they're just a collection of separate maps that are far more self contained like DIY or the Community Chest series, and boy am I glad that Going Down has continuity

I don't know if you should be playing those wads continuously, a big part of the fun (at least for me) in them is the challenge of how to approach each battle, if you have weapons/ammo/healt from previous maps, it just takes away part of the challenge in the fight

A great example of this is Demon Fear, which you mentioned, if you play it continuously, it just loses all the challenge (and for me, the fun). A lot of the maps in Demon Fear consist of one battle, and then the map just ends, in that you have to search for weapons while trying not to get killed, if you take away that element of go and find weapons it just losing the point.

Sure, it makes sense to play some wads continuously, but the majority of modern wads are made for pistol starting

Edited September 18, 2023 by Buhseo_

[Maximum Matt]

If you don't use the SSG, you jus' ain't Doomin' right

[CasualScrub]

While I have a preference for the standard shotgun from a practicality standpoint as a general workhorse, along with the chaingun, there's no doubt that the SSG has its place for more quickly dealing with some of the more spongy demons. It's my go-to for dealing with Pinkies for example, since it takes em out in one shot, or for dealing with Cacos since they're a big fat target and all the pellets smack em.

[Amaruψ]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:22 AM, banjiepixel said:

Using SSG as little as possible is a fun self-imposed challenge because of how boring SSG makes alot of combat by being overpowered and being usable in most of the combat situations. The spread and damage makes it almost as safe to use as chaingun while also being much safer to use than rocket launcher in most situations. SSG is actually needed only in rare situations and outside of those situations it generally just makes weapon balance worse and the combat less challenging. It's more fun to use regular shotgun, chaingun and rocket launcher instead because their drawbacks make them to have unique purpose. SSG has no unique purpose and can replace all 3 of these weapons in most situations with only real drawback being simply running out of shotgun shells if used too much.

 

Also, it's no fun having to adjust back to playing Doom 1 if you abuse SSG too much in Doom 2 to make things easier for yourself. Not relying on SSG makes the transition between these games always much easier.

 

I'm not quite sure if I've ever seen a post where it was written down with serious intentions, but came off as unintentionally funny.

 

Super shotgun isn't as overpowered as you're thinking it is. It is, and always has been a "high risk, high reward" sort of firearm. Sure, the damage output is rather high, but at the same times, contrary to your beliefs, it does have several drawbacks.

 

For once, you've to make completely sure that all of the pellets make contact with your target. On larger enemies and targets within close quarters, this isn't much of a problem. But when your targets are rather far away or even at the medium range, it becomes an issue. It forces you to be within the close vicinity of your targets. It takes longer to reload than to pump the regular shotgun, which means that you're absolutely risking yourself to be scratched and beaned if you're being surrounded by enemies. Two shells per shot also guarantees that you'll be constantly running dry of your shells. The last risk is semi-nullified by the bagpack, but it still poses a threat when the levels start to feature large hordes of monsters. It ends up being an effective weapon for crowd control, but be prepared to be beaned if you're not using it proper.

 

I can't quite understand what "rare" situations you're referring to. You're being quite vague there.

 

As for it serving as a replacement for both the chaingun and the rocket launcher? Now you're just being quite silly there. You're not going to hit someone with the SSG at longer ranges. You're absolutely going to require the chaingun in that situation. Rocket launcher, similarly can be better at times with the crowd control than the SSG, given that it boasts no reload between the shots and no spread, trading them in for the risk of blowing yourself up.

 

Also, I'd disagree with that last statement wholeheartedly. I've played Doom and Doom II back and forth, and I've never once felt any sort of difficulty between transitioning both games.

 

You really should play something else other than Doom II, if you find SSG to make it "less" challenging.

[banjiepixel]

1 hour ago, Amaruψ said:

 

Super shotgun isn't as overpowered as you're thinking it is. It is, and always has been a "high risk, high reward" sort of firearm. Sure, the damage output is rather high, but at the same times, contrary to your beliefs, it does have several drawbacks.

 

Actually high risk maybe when playing keyboard only, but it is actually far too easy to abuse the high reward when you have more control over things. It's true that the range is an issue but close and mid range it not hard to use SSG as a Chaingun replacement thanks to the spread and high damage since the reload is too quick to be effective drawback.

 

1 hour ago, Amaruψ said:

For once, you've to make completely sure that all of the pellets make contact with your target. On larger enemies and targets within close quarters, this isn't much of a problem. But when your targets are rather far away or even at the medium range, it becomes an issue. It forces you to be within the close vicinity of your targets.

 

It is a rushdown weapon but then again basically most weapons in the game reward you from rushdown and close range combat, even the BFG, something that basically is balancing decision that makes literally zero sense. And yes, you can't use SSG always in every sitution but also my point is actually that it can be used in way too many situations compared to other weapons in the game that have stronger limitations to their use. Even the BFG atleast give you true punishment from abuse with it's massive ammo usage.

 

2 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

It takes longer to reload than to pump the regular shotgun, which means that you're absolutely risking yourself to be scratched and beaned if you're being surrounded by enemies.

 

18 tics isn't really much to give enemies time to be more of a danger to you, unless we are talking about hitscanners. Not only does SSG save you tons of time in form of avoided weapon switching, SSG is extremely good weapon to open escape routes when surrounded by enemies, basically only Plasmagun and BFG being more effective at the job.

 

2 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

Two shells per shot also guarantees that you'll be constantly running dry of your shells. The last risk is semi-nullified by the bagpack, but it still poses a threat when the levels start to feature large hordes of monsters.

 

Alot of levels are balanced for SSG abuse so basically ammo will be rather rarely an issue. So it is mostly about mappers encouraging use of a design flaw in the original game. Even those large hordes of monsters are more of a symptom of monsters in Doom being too weak, especially for the skills of the modern Doomer.

 

2 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

As for it serving as a replacement for both the chaingun and the rocket launcher? Now you're just being quite silly there. You're not going to hit someone with the SSG at longer ranges. You're absolutely going to require the chaingun in that situation. Rocket launcher, similarly can be better at times with the crowd control than the SSG, given that it boasts no reload between the shots and no spread, trading them in for the risk of blowing yourself up.

 

Not talking about being linear replacement. With SSG you need to obviously get closer than with chaingun or rocket launcher but doing this is actually pretty safe with SSG, thanks to combination of huge spread and damage with only slighly longer reload time than regular shotgun.

 

2 hours ago, Amaruψ said:

You really should play something else other than Doom II, if you find SSG to make it "less" challenging.

 

It's almost funny how people seem to think that I haven't played anything beyond Doom II. And to be honest, I just always have had bias against SSG, even when I first played Doom II, I felt that it lacks the impact and fun factor of regular shotgun. It is a great backup weapon against higher tiers of enemies but it's total overkill to have always out when you will be probably only facing low tier grunts. Atleast give the lower monster tiers nice buff to allow the use of SSG against them to make more sense. Also fast monsters doesn't count as it is actually pretty terrible gameplay experience, needs to be actually something more balanced.