Do you avoid using exploits in maps if you find them?

[plums]

I've been playing Literalism lately, and while it's very good overall, it's clear that a number of maps weren't tested to see if various combat situations, traps, etc., could be exploited. By that I mean things like getting out of a lock-in fight that's meant to have a door close behind you, picking up items without triggering traps, etc. It, and other maps I've played/playtested recently, got me thinking that sometimes I feel "bad" for doing it this way, mostly out of sympathy for the mapper, but other times it's nice to feel like you got one over on a map that's doing it's best to kill you. How do other people feel about this?

 

Are there any maps designed so that you're meant to cheese them this way and avoid what seems like a very difficult fight?

 

Also if you're a mapper, and someone finds an exploit like that, how much do you care? Is it a flaw that needs to be fixed, or a reward that you'll leave for the cautious player?

 

If you're looking to avoid this kind of thing in your own maps, try escaping from any kind of trap you put in. There are too many situations to cover all the possibilities, but one mistake I see a lot is not realizing that if you have a high sector that drops down onto a floor, you can trigger a linedef action on the linedef of the higher sector by walking over it without actually going so far as to fall down.

Edited October 26, 2023 by plums

[Jayextee]

Hell naw, IMO it's one possible solution to the trap or encounter whether the mapper intended it that way or not.

[Firedust]

I don't exactly agreed with the whole 'play the level as the mapper intended' notion. Look at virtually any game - speedrunners and casual players always find new ways to tackle specific setups and that's the beauty of it. At the end of the day, it's all about having fun! Personally, I try not to escape combat areas and door-shoot my way through wads because this does get boring quickly, but I won't judge the folk who do just that. And on the flipside, overtightening the screws can too lead to boredom. Imagine watching 5 identical playthroughs of your level by different people.

[DankMetal]

Well, talking from a mapper's perspective, if i find an exploit while testing my map, and said exploit doesn't break the progression of my level in a substantial way, and it's not easy to perform, then i just keep it. Sometimes i even make it even easier to execute. Why do i do this? Simple, speedrunners love it.

[plums]

@Firedust @DankMetal yeah speedrunning is totally pro-exploit, and not just for Doom. I have seen demos for random maps that do various unintended things with progression, where it feels like the only reason the runner made a run is because of the exploit.

 

For casual play though it's a bit different. Something I didn't quite realize when I first posted the topic is that sometimes it feels like I'm cheating myself out of fun moreso than finding a cool glitch. Like I don't play maps just to get through them as quickly and effortlessly as possible, you know? That's assuming it's not so hard a map that I think I can beat it fine the normal way, mind you.

[Arsinikk]

Tbh if I find that someone plays my map incorrectly or skips some progression during testing, I tend to adjust my map to accompany that skip. I don't like forcing players to play my maps in the exactly the same way as I play them. While I think it's nice to have a "mapper intended" way of completing a map, I find some exploits fun and make the map more interesting. The only exploits I tend to remove and/or fix are ones that result in the map breaking and/or getting softlocked.

 

For example, in alot of my Boxcutter maps, I almost have two progressions for many of the maps. The normal progression and the speedrunner progression. For example in MAP05, you can play through the map normally and it take around 5-7 minutes, or you can do a tricky platforming sequence at the start, grab the rocket launcher, and rocket jump across the gap into the exit in around only 10 seconds. My goal with having more than one progression is to create fun for as many people as possible, and just cuz you may not be able to do the 'secret' speedrunner progression, doesn't mean you can't enjoy the maps.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Arsinikk

[LadyMistDragon]

No, because that would just flat-out make things take longer. While I'm not that bothered by lock-in fights, it does manage to get in the way of progression sometimes. Otherwise, I'll exploit away!

 

Well, that's not entirely true. I try to avoid cheesing fights whenever possible but sometimes, door-camping is the intended method, whether I like it or not. At least that's mostly in older maps though. Otherwise, that would get quite tiresome.

Edited October 27, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Hellektronic]

I never use exploits, in any game, I'm more about immersion and challenge. But some people feed off of those kind of elements, they like to hunt exploits and exploit them. Speedrunners tend to be those kind of people, rocket jumps, running through walls, whatever works to cut time out of their run. Me, I consider that cheating, but I guess it really doesn't matter if people enjoy it. Like I said, some people love to hunt exploits. And if your speedrun rules allow for exploits, more power to those people, but I'm not one of those people.

If somebody builds a map designed to be exploited, well... then I guess I die. *shrugs* And delete the wad for being stupidly designed for a niche group of doom players.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Hellektronic

[DNSKILL5]

If I found the exploit, sure, I'll use it, but I don't go out of my way to find or learn about exploits either.

[Amaruψ]

Not usually. I always tend to finish the maps they were intended the way to be played, since I like enjoying what I'm playing.

 

However if it's something as boring and ugly as Willits maps, then that They Will Repent window jump becomes necessary.

[NiGHTS108]

I do enjoy playing maps “as intended” above all usually but at the same time I do get a weird amount of enjoyment out of curiously poking at whatever weird little exploit I can find, and usually if I find one in my own map (which unfortunately or otherwise is pretty rare) I’ll leave it in

[Lila Feuer]

I think you should be rewarded for thinking outside the box during a fight.

I've made it a practice to test linedef ranges by getting right up to suspiciously placed spheres and circling them to see if I have to land directly on it or if I can trigger the trap and then get the sphere afterward so I don't waste it on something stupid.

If I can just, leave a room or area that may've expected me to fight in there I will, chokepoints are vital to my I guess "turtling" strategy I often use at times which is generally cover based. If that can't solve a big fight then I'll suck it up and make do with the arena's offerings, it's just down to reflexes at that point.

When I was thinking of exploits I was wondering if this also included having knowledge of Doom's quirks and intricacies, like item bumping and infinite height, I abuse both with firing rockets at walls to damage/kill enemies below me and to sometimes grab something that's just out of reach. I try to avoid item bumping keys however or infinite height exploiting a switch for fear of sequence breaking on my first playthrough.

[roadworx]

my map in literalism (map11) has a pretty major exploit that lets you cheese the entire end fight, but you have my blessing to exploit it as much as you wish. it was the fifth map i ever finished and the first that i ever released, so it's definitely pretty rough around the edges. regardless of that, i'm still proud of it, and i still think that the end fight is pretty fun if played properly :p

 

as a player, i typically avoid any exploits when i find them. if it's a progression skip that involves using glides or sr50 or something, then i'll probably try it out for fun and then revert back to a save, but that's the extent of it; exploits that make fights easier are a lot less fun for me and i'd much rather play them as intended.

[OniriA]

If I find an exploit, I would definitely abuse it.

Edited October 27, 2023 by OniriA

[RataUnderground]

No, I cheese always if I can, because finding and using exploits its very satisfactory, and because an incredible number of mappers today have more fun irritating players and being mean than actually designing fun maps. 

[jazzmaster9]

1 hour ago, RataUnderground said:

an incredible number of mappers today have more fun irritating players and being mean than actually designing fun maps. 

Well im yet to find any of these  "mappers today" cuz a lot of the wads coming out lately are excellent. 

 

But yeah will definitely use cheese strats when I can since im not really the best Doomer out there. Its always so cool finding those unintended safe spots and skips.

Edited October 27, 2023 by jazzmaster9

[Lila Feuer]

1 hour ago, RataUnderground said:

an incredible number of mappers today have more fun irritating players and being mean than actually designing fun maps. 

Would be awesome if you could list some names so us irritable players know who to watch out for. 😉

[MFG38]

I'm an unapologetic chronic exploit user.

[kwc]

10 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

Tbh if I find that someone plays my map incorrectly or skips some progression during testing, I tend to adjust my map to accompany that skip. I don't like forcing players to play my maps in the exactly the same way as I play them. While I think it's nice to have a "mapper intended" way of completing a map, I find some exploits fun and make the map more interesting. The only exploits I tend to remove and/or fix are ones that result in the map breaking and/or getting softlocked.

I really like this point of view. I feel like some exploits can be responded to like desire lines. It’s honestly quite of a gift to catch an exploit or sequence-break or softlock, in addition to catching a potential flaw in a level’s design; you can potentially find avenues of movement that are intuitive to the player. Case by case, naturally.

 

In response to OP, I definitely try the plausible jump or item grab when the opportunity clearly presents itself. Sometimes I try it out of morbid curiosity when I feel it’s clearly unintentional. Sometimes I don’t bother if I feel like it’s not worth the effort or my time. At it’s best it feels like a different layer of conquering the space as opposed to killing a room of enemies, though.

Edited October 27, 2023 by kwc

[Professor Hastig]

 

3 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

and because an incredible number of mappers today have more fun irritating players and being mean than actually designing fun maps. 

 

It's something I noticed as well, but I don't think it's being mean but trying too hard to control gameplay flow. Of course with that there always comes the danger that the fun factor of exploring the map diminishes.

And this kind of map is surely the one where finding and using exploits is most fun.

[Cruduxy Pegg]

If there is no door locking you into an arena then you aren't forced to fight to the death in that room with honor. That's hardly what I would call an exploit, I was thinking stuff like jumping through windows to skip half a map, rocket jumping into exits or skipping traps that lower by immediately walking back and shooting all the monsters in the pit.

 

I don't really care much and just continue playing unless it allows me to skip most of the map or if the main attraction is arenas and instead I play tower defense from an oversight camping spot.

[Doomy__Doom]

It depends (yea yea). Some thoughts in no particular order of importance:

• exploits in general are something I find fun (not necessarily in doom). Single-player videogames are one of the few places in our lives where we can generally break rules without negative consequences.
• for anyone who maps, trying out various exploits and tricks could be helpful to learn what to be aware of in case you really want something to work in a particular way (applies to both ends of exploitable--exploit-proof scale).
• The very same exploit can contextually increase or decrease fun. Fun being subjective, here's a personal example: Eviternity 19 (Dehydration) final fight on UV-fast. When I was recording a single segment video, I SR50'd through the fight (the arena raises away from you, and there is a TP to get back in so map maker at least thought it might be possible to be there) and let everything infight it out. It's not that I couldn't do the fight fair and square, a great deal more engaging experience, but a crammed arena with rocket-shooting enemies on -fast at the tail end of a 2 hour long playthrough? No thank you, I just wanted a successful exit, not a super stressful grind. An exploit in-game, but a strategy to maximize sanity, if you will.
  
  Conversely, I'm much more likely to choose to engage with a "pretend lockdown" in a casual playthrough where I don't stand to permanently lose big time and effort investments if the alternative turns out unexciting, such as brandead pumping rockets down a corridor.
   
• Exploits that make normal play easier may sometimes be required to make special rules (your non-standard difficulties/categories) play possible at all. The more the merrier and all that.
• the topic of reporting exploits when playing early/RC versions of maps or explicitly playtesting probably deserves more thought than I can spare right now.

[bofu]

Form a mapper's perspective: if you're going to just leave a combat encounter, I won't always stop you, but I do want to make you work for it. I will go out of my way to fix cheese that makes a fight trivial, but I will reward players who strive to be clever every now and then.

 

To.answer the actual question: depends on the exploit. Does it simply provide me with an advantage? Sure. Does it actually break me out of the intended playable level area and show me parts of the geometry that aren't designed to be seen? I'll avoid it.

Edited October 27, 2023 by bofu

[volleyvalley]

Well, it depends. If I find an exploit, that lets me to skip some parts of the level, and gives me an early advantage, then I will or will not use it if I want my playthrough of the level to feel fresh.

[baja blast rd.]

So this thread is talking about something more like structural intent (I don't know how to name that, but we're referring to broad strokes decisions like whether you stay in a lock-in fight or try to escape it) rather than 'strategic intent' (for example, the exact strategy you use to tackle a lock-in fight provided you're committed to staying in it). Strategic intent is borderline not a thing at all. Sometimes people think it exists, but there are several strategies for beating Sunlust map29's YK archvile fight and that fight is as rigid as it gets.

 

As a mapper, structural intent mostly comes down to how fun the setup is. If escaping from a fight leaves a tiresome chokepoint, I might try to avoid that being possible. Or I might just decide that the tiresome cleanup is more hassle than engaging the setup straight-up, so I'll take that as an opportunity to not enforce the lock-in. But if you drop from one fight right into another fight and have enemies from the first fight apply extra pressure or even fly into that second setup, then that was probably accounted for in the design. I usually test my maps with a variety of itineraries. 

 

I've noticed that it can circle around to the point that sometimes players try to respect perceived structural intent so much that they miss when a map is allowing you to play it more freely. Like, if a map start has no barriers that prevent you from simply leaving, you're probably not "intended" to hang around in the general vicinity of the spawn spot and clear out every enemy you see before moving onward. I've run into people doing that and claiming to "run out of ammo" when you can just explore a bit further beyond the literal spawn and there's a cache of ammo right there. 

 

Also sometimes maps do not have very clear cut "structural intent" at all. In my map Deep Space Thruster, I ended up playing the map like this:  

 

 

All of that is allowed. It's not "speedrun tactics." That is what the map is designed to support! There's only three lock-ins in the whole map (and two are brief barrier that lower back down seconds later) and good luck trying to establish how the map was "meant" to be played. I wouldn't expect anyone to play that freely without foreknowledge, but if you're trying to clear out every area bit by bit that's going to be obviously harder than just using the freedom you're given and way more unnatural-looking. 

 

When it comes down to it, as a player, I approach it like, "I'm going to maximize how much fun I have." I also think there are lots of situations where it's impossible to really know "intent" and where it doesn't really work to think in those terms.  

 

 

[magicsofa]

I'm already not a big fan of railroaded lock-ins, so I'll definitely hop out if I see the chance. I also just can't help myself as a player, when I see a game-breaking tactic I compulsively take it.

 

This is why in mapping, I don't bother with lock-ins as much and instead try to allow the monsters to pursue the player, especially with monster teleport lines in just the right spots. Sometimes you can get it so that the lines don't get triggered until after the player has run out, thinking the demons are stucked :)

 

Now the entire map is one giant lock-in, CHEESE THAT

[Lila Feuer]

@baja blast rd. A very fair argument that promotes multiple playthroughs of the same map trying different strategies. First impressions are everything, until they are not. I can say a map is annoying but I only played it one way, there may be other ways to make it more fun.

 

[taviow]

As a player, if it's my first time through a map I then want to play it legitimately. However if I find an exploit, then I wouldn't be afraid to use it in the future.

 

But there are different kinds of exploits. Some are clever, like the AV jump in Sunder map 12, however others just consist of breaking encounters completely beyond recognition.

 

I think it's the mapper's job to fix the most egregious of these, and if they didn't, then from the POV of the player it's unsurprising that they end up using whatever tools are available to them, including exploits.

 

 

[Ludi]

As a mapper, I honestly take great joy in seeing other people find novel solutions to my encounters, whether I intend them or not. I say break the map however you want, I'm not your dad.

[Kwisior]

47 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

@baja blast rd. A very fair argument that promotes multiple playthroughs of the same map trying different strategies. First impressions are everything, until they are not. I can say a map is annoying but I only played it one way, there may be other ways to make it more fun.

 

Hell Revealed is a master at that. I can't stress how much more fun MAP13 is when you skip the beginning and go straight to the garden area. Or MAP27 where you can either grind the beginning imps out with the chaingun or come back with a RL and SSG and slaughter them.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Kwisior