roadworx

zero. i don't sit here going "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO PLAY ALL THE NEW RELEASES OR I'M GONNA DIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEeeee", because i see no point in playing as much as possible when i could instead just play what peaks my interest and savor those instead of diluting everything to the point where it all blends together. it's not even remotely the same thing? you only get locked out of something completely optional; unless you're gonna start hyperventilating because you don't get 100% on your first blind run, then you can just...replay the map. completionists like to take their time getting everything anyways, so why not? besides, if the mapper values replayability, then you'll likely still have fun even on your second playthrough of the map :)

widow is literally an old lady, idk if she's ever even used discord before. now shut up and respect your elders you goddamn whippersnapper

or you could just...y'know...turn off all the effects...

good taste tbh, he's pretty hot

oof, that's about how cold it gets in wisconsin as well actually. the summers there are just as miserable as the winters, they're humid as hell, so i do know how you feel about summers being worse with that being said, the finnish are legally obligated to like snow, so your opinion doesn't count

how about you spend a few winters in wisconsin then? when it's so cold that every bit of exposed skin feels like it's burning when you're trying to shovel a horrid combination of snow and chunks of ice, then i'm sure it'll be a nice bit of change in perspective for you two :) nah it's okay go ahead

snow is awful. it's cold, it makes a mess of your clothes, it's a pain in the ass to shovel, and yet there are in fact some complete lunatics out there who like the shit. why? what's wrong with them? they should explain themselves at once

@Capellan it is ur time 2 shine anyways uhhh i've actually been using the chainsaw way more lately...i definitely still prefer berserk, but as i play and map more i feel like i'm starting to appreciate the chainsaw far greater than i used to. when you're stupidly low on ammo and really need to conserve it, a chainsaw provides an option that, tbh, feels more interesting than berserk (even if not as fun imo): you can kill an enemy far quicker than you could using your fists, but you'll have to be put into a period of vulnerability where you're not even guaranteed for the enemy you're attacking not to hurt you, let alone the enemies that may be around you. it's a neat little risk vs reward thingy

ugh, a terry wad in 2024. it's probably for the best that it doesn't work then

a simple difference of opinion would be to say that he doesn't like slaughtermaps for x and y reasons, which would be perfectly fine; there's tons of reasons not to like them, from thinking many of them are too frustrating or sloggy to preferring more traditional doom maps. instead, he's very specifically claiming that they all suck because there's "no strategy" (which is false), shitting on the mappers who make them (which is scummy), and then reducing them down to a "shooting gallery" (which is arrogant). if you're gonna not like slaughtermaps then that's understandable, but at least don't be an asshole about it, y'know?

this is such a stupid take that it genuinely reads like something you'd see in a youtube comments section. good job :)

i can join the queue as well for backup, just in case :)

uhhhh no. as much as i'm a fan of it, obituary can be particularly dickish at times and is very much not for everyone. i don't think it's a good beginner wad

that's like half the opinions in here

i mean, this can be interesting to discuss and is a nice reprieve from all the terrible opinions in this thread, so i doubt anyone will mind :p what i mean by that is that all the aspects that people typically associate with the wads are composed of elements that have been done a million times before in both boom as well as in some vanilla wads. it's just that they've been arranged in a way that was new at the time. take the ufos from ancient aliens for example: they're an iconic part of the wad that, when ancient aliens first released, blew people's freakin minds (i would know, i was there!! *shakes fist at cloud*). while there was definitely an aspect of "omg how did they do that aaaaAAAA" to it all, i think that a larger part of it was that it was something completely different, something that none of us had ever seen done before in the game. it's creative usage of midtextures, ceilings, and teleporters, something that has been done loads in the past and doesn't push any limits, done in a new way. plus, we had already seen flying ships and gone into them before as well. equinox would be a prime example of that, and that's a vanilla wad. if vanilla can do it, then boom can absolutely do it with not a single limit pushed. now, you absolutely could argue that they helped push the limits of what people thought could be done in the medium...buuut that involves historical context of the time of their release, which i have a strong feeling that @Gibbitudinous is not, in fact, talking about :p

now that's a proper hot take. a rather bewildering one that's nigh incomprehensible, but still one hell of a hot take. only one of the three wads you mentioned comes even remotely close to fitting that description. yes, btsx does in fact limit itself to vanilla and all of its ridiculous quirks, and then it does in fact pulverize those limitations into a fine powder before snorting them by making gargantuan maps (in e2 anyways) that have all sorts of technical fuckery. pushing vanilla to its breaking point is kinda the whole point of it. the other two wads that you mentioned are the ones that i really scratch my head over - why eviternity and ancient aliens of all wads? i mean, eviternity does have some long maps in there, but there's really only one truly massive map in the main 30 maps. ancient aliens even less so, because the vast majority of maps in that set are of medium length, with only a few longer ones for some variety. i suppose you could say they're complex in architecture and some of their gimmicks, but it's nothing that actively hinders anything. i suppose you could call them "complex", but most of their complexity comes in the form of interesting ways of structuring their maps, like with leave your sol behind. i don't see why unique gimmicks or interesting progression would be a hindrance to anyone's playing experience, though? and then there's the claim that these are all, in your words, "rebelling against the very concept of restraint despite being inherently tied to it". in the context of doom, i would say that the only one truly doing that would be btsx. as stated previously, the entire point of it is to limit itself and then push those limits as far as they can be pushed. with ancient aliens and eviternity though...huh?? unless you consider targeting boom-based source ports to be tying yourself to restraint (which, when considering the small little itty bitty fact that they remove limits, would be a bit goofy), then i fail to see how they do that. everything that they do is pretty in line with boom and mbf, they just do it in unique ways that haven't been seen before their release is all. also, why would you be in the doom community if you weren't okay with breaking down limits? we've been doing that for 30 years now lol

no i know that in a previous post i made this sorta secret out to be just that, a fuck you, but this isn't necessarily true. with this type of design, you actually aren't supposed to know that it's the case; expecting people to know something like that is absurd. the point is to provide the player with foreknowledge so that if they ever decide to replay the level, there'll be something extra for them. in truth, it's less hostile and more giving extra content should someone decide to replay the map, likely because the map is replayable in general rather than because of the single dumb little secret.

christ man, just take the advice that i gave to you not that long ago.

doom

you're actually kinda underselling it tbh. crispy doom is essentially a heavily upgraded doom, while gzdoom is basically an entirely separate game engine that just so happens to be meant for playing doom my suggestion to op would be to use an in-browser dosbox to play using the tartar port

amazing post as usual, kappes buur. you've really added so much to the thread. anyways, to op: we actually do have an idea of what it'd be like. many of the e2 maps were based off of his maps but modified by sandy, so look to those and stuff like map10 of doom 2 if you're wondering.

it's called a puzzle! you're supposed to think!!!

who says that secrets that can lock you out have to be centered around going fast? they can also be about routing, guiding monsters to open doors for you, platforming, all sorts of stuff. you're just not being creative about it is all.

well yeah, ofc there's more to it than that. if a map was entirely linear and the only bit of replayability was a single run-of-the-mill secret that you can get locked out of, then yeah, i'd fully agree with you. however, it's simply something that compounds it, adds a little more to what's already there. especially if it's something that's really interesting and you actually wanna see, such as an entire area of the map for you to explore or something that lets you get the upper hand on a fight. not just some boring-ass closet that only people who obsessively max everything go for g o o d :)

something that i've noticed people really, really despise more than anything else are secrets that the player can permanently get locked out of. it's a design utterly reviled and seen as being tantamount to mass murder...but personally, i think that opinion is a load of shit. i recently just found out that several of the maps made by someone whose work i adore actually have this exact thing, where secrets will have doors that only open once or will get closed off permanently if taking a certain route. i thought it was pretty funny at first because i saw it as a bit of a fuck you to the player, but i asked him about it and he told me that major part of it is about replayability. which, yeah, that actually makes sense; it does in fact add a bit of replayability to the map when you play through it a second time, now that you have that foreknowledge of what you should do in order to get the secret. sure, you'll be prevented from getting 100% on your first blind run, but is that really that big of a deal? not every blind run needs to have you experiencing every little thing there is to the map! it's something that only prevents you from getting something that's completely optional and doesn't affect any of the actual progression of the map while providing extra replay value, so i really don't see why it's such a disparaged practice. is there any legitimate reason other than "i can't 100% this map blind this sucks fuck you" that makes this so horrible? from where i stand, the sole downside is that it pushes certain people out of their comfort zone a little. edit to add something to clear up confusion: no, maps that solely use a secret that can lock you out isn't suddenly replayable just because of that. it simply compounds replayability that's already there is all