Doomax

@LVENdead First of all, thanks so much for your video! Of all of the people who I've seen play the map, you're the first one to have gone the meaty way. Every other person went left at the start towards the demon bar, then clockwise round the map. Because of that this is the first real feedback I've had on the resources balance in the meaty direction. I designed the map so that it could be played either way round, which is why some of the progression is a little weird when you're going back down the other side. Ideally I was hoping that players would probe back and forth between the two side to get resources before commiting to a direction, and that's actually when you ended up doing to an extent. There is a second SSG that you did miss on the meaty side, just before the blood garden. You were actually staring at it for a couple of minutes around 16:40 while giving a monologe about texturing. My goal with that bit was to make sure that players had the SSG before the blood garden in case the didn't get the one on the other side of the map. I really thought that people would look through the window and see the SSG + armour and climb round to get it. Another secret you narrowly missed was in the book case, it looked like you were trying to press the bright yellow book but just humped either side of it. I do want people to find the secrets. It's really hard to know how obvious to make them. At the start of the video you said you hoped you'd get to crush the mancubois later. That made me happy because that is how it works. How do you crush them? With moving meat of corse! There are some eyes to shoot after you fight the cybers. This really is teaching me the value of feedback. Much of what you said hit home. In particular the idea of "kill your darlings" from writing. I put a lot of pretty gnarly ideas into this map, like the unkillable mancs in the middle, the delay on getting the rocket lancher, the silent teleporters in the trees and most of all the fact that it can be played either clockwise or anticlockwise. But, I don't regret releasing the map with those ideas implemented in full. I'd rather see how people react to an idea in it's raw form rather than reel it in before it sees the light of day. I'll get more information about what works this way. I might go back and make some changes based on your feedback. Just a quick note about texture alignment and border textures. Some parts of the map are well crafted like the demon bar and toilets, other parts are very rough like most of the rock. I see this map as a learning piece rather than a portfolio piece if that makes sence. So as long as I know I can make well crafted areas for now I'm happy to have much of the map look scuffed. The main purpose is for me to be able to express ideas quickly and iterate on them. If I was to finalise this map to be part of a bigger project I would tighten it all up.

I have updated the first post with a new version! I've addressed most all of the problems that have come up. The final section has been reworked, the SSG area is much harder to miss, and there are more resources in the areas where people were starving before. If you've been thinking of playing the map, or re-playing it, now is a good time!

@IcarusOfDaggers Thanks for taking the time to try my map and write such a detailed post! The map actually does have difficulties implemented, but I admit there is not nearly enough difference between them. I think everyone who's played it at this point has said there is not enough ammo and health, so I definitely need to put more in. Especially in the plasma gun area. I might even add a second rad suit on the easier modes. I'm ok with people cheesing some of the demons in the bar area. If the player is able to come up with a plan to take out monsters without using ammo, then that's cool wiith me. I had to make some of the windows block monsters sight otherwise the mancs in the middle wouldn't stop firing into the bar area. It sounds to me like you went left at the start and tried to brute force your way all the way round the map. My hope was that players would go right a bit, get the SSG, then try the left (meaty) route, get the chaingun, and then kind of alternate working their way up either side. But it seems that players just want to choose a direction and push that way no matter how hard it gets. :\ If you do come back to the map at any point, I should hopefully have uploaded a new version that fixes some of the biggest issues by then.

@Arsinikk Thank you so much for playing my map and explaining your thoughts. This is exactely what I'm here for. I've watched 4 players now, and there are already some clear lessons to learn. For a start, ammo and health are too tight, especially in the plasma gun area. There are a number of things that you unfortunately missed the idea on. I can't blame you for that. If the mapper needs to expain an idea to the player then the map it's self has failed to communicate the idea properly. First and formost I simply don't care about people who want to get 100%. I'm aware that it's a speed run catagory in the doom community, it's just not what I'm doing. I'm trying to learn level design in general, not "doom level" design specifically. Ultimately I want to make levels in other engines. This for me is just practice. About the final fight: The archvile are not meant to be part of the fight at all. My intention is that the player kills the cybers then escapes though the portal straight away. I've already become aware of a few problems with this, so I'll probably re-design that final part somewhat. The actual reason those archies are there is to prevent the player from just killing the mancubois as soon as they get enough ammo to do so. Part of the point of the level is that you're constantly under pressure from them when you're in the open, so the player has to seek cover. If you can just kill them then that pressure just disappears. One problem with this whole thing is that over the course of the level the player builds up this hatred for the mancubois, and it's only right that then that the player gets to kill them at the end. At the moment the map really fails to give the player that experience. I'm so sorry you missed both the super shotguns. You actually saw one of them right at the start and commented on it, but you didn't make the effort to get in there. I honestly think part of what happend is down to you not using mouse look, you weren't able to look down and see the way into the cave. I honestly didn't even think that people would play it without mouse look (although I did make sure all the shootable switches were at the correct height). Last thing, I can only appologise for the archvile in the bottom of the chaingunners building. He's there as a nasty joke on players who know the original map29 well. That is where you go to get the plasma gun in map29. Unfortunately, to anyone who isn't familier with map29 it's just nonsensical. Even for people who get the joke, it probably isn't worth it. So it probably just shouldn't be in the map. Thanks again for playing my map. I feel like I am learning so much.

@sandwedge Man I had a blast watching your playthrough! It's such a rush seeing someone play something I worked so hard on. Right at the start you jumped down onto the path of platforms in the lava. I imagen in your brain it went something like "this looks like it goes somewhere... wait this doesn't fucking go anywhere!". The one other player who I've watched play it made the same mistake as you, and that makes me concerned that that part is misleading to the player. I really didn't want people to kill the mancubois in the middle. One of the main ideas of the map is that you always under pressure when you're in the open, so you need to run and find safe spots. If you can just kill them, that pressure completely disapears. I'm generally worried that players might not get that idea, and that they will kill the mancubois. The archviles coming in to res them really hammers that point home. Hopefully players will get the idea after killing one of them and not kill the others. You actually killed them all at the end! I've never tried to do that. I just make a break for the exit after killing the cybers. It's interesting to see that it's possible! Congrtaz on doing the archvile tower on your first attempt btw! I'm so worried that bit will piss players off... and no doubt it will some people. But you have proven that it's possible do it first time blind. I'm so glad you went back at the end to find the secret room with the blue armour. I would have loved to hear your live commentry when you found that room :) I deliberately didn't post any screenshots of that secret so that it would be more of a special surprise for people who find it.

Oh wow thanks for featuring my map! And thanks for playing it too. Makes me feel accepted by the community.

@Caco Bell It might be the case that I got too good at the map during testing and in fact there isn't enough health around for first time players. That's the sort of thing I probably need to tune. It sounds like you're having the kind of experience that I was aiming for though, so that's good. Also the fact that you're compelled to give it another go is great news! I would love to know which areas you found and/or missed. By all means, PM me some discords where I can get feedback. Feedback is what I'm here for.

Thanks for the kind words guys. kalensar, looks like you're the only person whos tried to play it so far. Can I ask what kind of tea you like? I'd love to see a video of a play through is possible.

Hello doomers! I have just compleated my second map "Of Magma and Meat". It is a tribute to Doom2 map29 The Living End. The player has a lot of freedom in choosing which order to tackle the different parts of the map, before facing the finale. This map is gzDoom only, and uses OTEX textures from https://doom.ukiro.com/about-otex/ I've reduced monster health a little, taken almost all of the randomness out of damage rolls, and tweaked the player weapons very slightly. I hope nothing is changed so much that it feels unfamiliar. I'm really trying to learn the craft of level design, so I really want to hear whatever ideas and criticisms people have. I made this map in just under 4 weeks. I currently seem to be on a schedule of making one map per summer. This is not the greatest map in Doom2, this is just a tribute. *Edit* Watched one playthough and found some minor things to fix. New version is now attached. *Edit 2" New version uploaded! *Edit 3" Some changes based on feedback. OfMagmaAndMeat_4.7z

I love watching these videos guys, it's a great feeling. Thanks for the feedback all round. I'm a little worried now that my next map wont live up to everyones expectations! The next one probably wont have big secret areas, I don't want to do the same thing with every map. I do want to do Heretic though, and maybe try the more advanced format.

ElPadrecitoCholo: Wow! I can't believe how well you managed the green room. You played it better than I do and I know where all the monsters are. Your decision making is so fast! Are you considered to be a top level doom player or does everyone round here play like that? Anyway I'm glad you liked it. I'm probably going to make a Heretic map next I think. CHAINMAIL: I thought about making the blue armor a secret, but the fact that it's in the middle of the room in plain sight to me meant that the armor can't be a secret. I've reconsidered now though and made it a secret. Also, the secret count is getting kinda high, but it meh, it is what it is. You're right about getting caught on stuff in that area, but the combat is easy in there so I'm not too worried about it. Esperpento: Man I have no idea how to change the music. I couldn't change the "Par time" either. Good luck finishing the map in 30 seconds lol. I guess you need to use dhacked or something?

I couldn't reply before because I had apparentely reached the limit of how many posts I could make in a day after just three posts! So I'd better make the most of this one. I'm happy to hear that people like the shdaows. I Kept having to change the shape of ceilings because the light up there is the same as on the floor, it was hard to make the light make sence on the ceiling too. I do worry that some sections are too dark and I did add some extra torches at the end, such as the one in the second screen shot I posted. I could probably squeeze a couple more like that in through the map in some of the darkest areas. Nootrac4571: I'm happy to hear you liked the difficulty balance. I don't think I have any interest in trying to make the most super hardcore difficult maps. So you missed the computer area map but still managed the find everything else. That's great news. I'm always torn about the computer map, I think it can kind of ruin the fun of exploring for yourself. dmdr said: "the green marble area was a bit too easy to cheese once you know what's gonna happen." This bothers me. Can anyone make any suggestions about this? I want an encounter to be possible on a players first blind attempt, but if an encounter is based on a suprise, how do you make it non-trivial once the player knows what will happen? A supprise only works once. Alternativly, if you design an encounter to be difficult even when the player knows it well, it seems like no one will have a chance on the first attempt, which I don't like. The worst case I can think of, has the player turn up, die to some BS, then re-load and easily avoid it because they know it's coming. In that situation, they had 2 attempts at the encounter and neither of them were interesting for them. Mr dmdr, is that what happend to you in the green marble area?

Wow there's a lot to reply to! dmdr: Look like you're the first to make it into the secret parts! Feedback on the harder monster encounters in there is valuble to me, that's the sort of thing I need to get a lot better at. I'll have a look at the compatibility thing that you mentioned. Although I'm not too sure if I'm really worried about it. My end goal is to make a stand alone game anyway, so at this point my priority is just to learn the tools and design skills. Biodegradable: Man I had a great time watching your playthough! The blue door is meant to be something you find easily and the blue key is meant to be hard! I can't believe you were able to grab that box of shells through the bars at the begining!! I'll need to fix that. That box was meant to be a clue that there is a secret there, and that secret is meant to reveal the blue door to you lol. Wow there's a lot to reply to! dmdr: Look like you're the first to make it into the secret parts! Feedback on the harder monster encounters in there is valuble to me, that's the sort of thing I need to get a lot better at. I'll have a look at the compatibility thing that you mentioned. Although I'm not too sure if I'm really worried about it. My end goal is to make a stand alone game anyway, so at this point my priority is just to learn the tools and design skills. Biodegradable: Man I had a great time watching your playthough! The blue door is meant to be something you find easily and the blue key is meant to be hard! I can't believe you were able to grab that box of shells through the bars at the begining!! I'll need to fix that. That box was meant to be a clue that there is a secret there, and that secret is meant to reveal the blue door to you lol. Murdoch: Thanks for your feedback here, I might change the wood texture. By the way, about the yellow door. Originally I wanted it to just be a switch that required the yellow key, but I couldn't work out how to do that so I just put the switch behind a yellow door. >_>