The Dean of Doom series (companion thread)

[Devalaous]

He keeps making me look into wads I'd otherwise never think of touching.

 

This one looks crazy difficult though, will have to try it in the future after ive mastered other things. Ive only just managed to beat HR, I should rewatch his video on that, now that I have fresh perspective on it.

[OceanMadman]

Yeah, that was a very nice episode. Great writing and the wad seemed very well made too.

Edited August 23, 2023 by OceanMadman

[LSC Lasico]

 

[RichardDS90]

Had a feeling that Doorway To Quake would be in the top maps. Expected it to be Valedictorian even. And surprised he didn't comment on Skinny Puppy's music, it's so damn funky.

[roadworx]

h.

 

as much as i appreciate your thoughts on modern wads, mtpain, i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start. they were meant to be continuous experiences; the whole was oftentimes more important than the sum of its parts back then. pistol starts were only done if you died or were doing a speedrun. if you truly want to judge these maps based on how the authors meant them to be played, then you can't pistol start every single wad you play. i appreciate you, and i appreciate your opinions on modern wads, but come on now.

 

and i don't even really like requiem that much!! it's a cramped, undercooked mess of a megawad

Edited September 4, 2023 by roadworx

[Guff dotD]

12 minutes ago, roadworx said:

-snip-

What about Demo Recording? There are demos in Requiem, and countless other 90's wads. 

And recording single-level Demos back then forced a pistol start.

[roadworx]

Just now, Guff dotD said:

What about Demo Recording? There are demos in Requiem, and countless other 90's wads. 

And recording single-level Demos back then forced a pistol start.

i'm sorry, and demo recording. happy? :p

[Gibbitudinous]

It's funny how I had started playing Rebirth and Requiem at the same time for some reason but felt like one of them had to go so I could focus on the other, and I picked Requiem but was only like halfway thru it regardless when the Dean of Doom on it dropped. Unsurprisingly I think I'll have another go at Rebirth instead since it seems like I've seen the best Requiem has to offer anyways.

[Devalaous]

Ive never managed to get through Requiem, always get bored early on. Probably because it has no connection to TeamTNT's works outside of Dario, and because by the time I found Doomworld and its downloads, the Top 100 was already out and thus I'd entirely missed out on Memento Mori and its sequel, so theres no real hook for me, outside 'one of the classics'

 

I do plan on getting through it one day though. With HR and AV conquered, I really should go back and finish the other classic megawads. Thankfully with Doom Launcher's stat tracking to keep my OCD hooked, it will happen in time.

[Firedust]

Ahahaha he really tore Requiem a new one

TBF memento mori 2 aged so much better than the two other megawads in the trilogy

Edited September 4, 2023 by Firedust

[Benjogami]

2 hours ago, roadworx said:

[...] i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start. they were meant to be continuous experiences; the whole was oftentimes more important than the sum of its parts back then. pistol starts were only done if you died or were doing a speedrun. [...]

 

I accept that continuous play was the predominant way to play, maybe the way that authors expected you to play, and probably the most fun way to play, but I dunno, I just don't accept that the wad shouldn't be pistol started or that bad pistol starts shouldn't be called out. If it's expected that players will pistol start when they die (although I sure didn't play that way---I loaded a save instead), then what, are they just supposed to not die on most levels? Is a miserable pistol start the intended punishment for dying?

 

And they surely didn't test any given map by playing every map before it. That would be absurd. No testing until the wad is compiled?? Gotta play through the whole thing to retest changes in a later map??? Of course not. Did they give themselves piles of weapons and ammo to approximate what they might have when playing continuously, or use idfa? Surely not. They knew how the pistol starts played and they chose to ship it that way, and I think it's valid to criticize that choice.

[SMG_Man]

19 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

Did they give themselves piles of weapons and ammo to approximate what they might have when playing continuously, or use idfa? Surely not.

 

Gonna be honest, this is exactly how I playtest my own maps lol.

[roadworx]

19 minutes ago, Benjogami said:

 

I accept that continuous play was the predominant way to play, maybe the way that authors expected you to play, and probably the most fun way to play, but I dunno, I just don't accept that the wad shouldn't be pistol started or that bad pistol starts shouldn't be called out. If it's expected that players will pistol start when they die (although I sure didn't play that way---I loaded a save instead), then what, are they just supposed to not die on most levels? Is a miserable pistol start the intended punishment for dying?

 

And they surely didn't test any given map by playing every map before it. That would be absurd. No testing until the wad is compiled?? Gotta play through the whole thing to retest changes in a later map??? Of course not. Did they give themselves piles of weapons and ammo to approximate what they might have when playing continuously, or use idfa? Surely not. They knew how the pistol starts played and they chose to ship it that way, and I think it's valid to criticize that choice.

they likely did test their individual maps at first, but from what i understand, they went through afterwards once it was all said and done and rebalanced for continuous. there's literally people who made maps for requiem and mm2 still around today that you could ask about this.

 

also, the mindset was that if you died and were choosing not to play with saves, then...yeah. you were gonna be punished. it was supposed to be a challenge to overcome. by playing each map with pistol starts you're deliberately giving yourself a skewed version of what the map is like, because you're playing a version of the map that's deliberately harder. this is like watching an episode in the middle of a story-based show and then criticizing it because you don't know what's going on.. if you wanna figure everything out from there, then sure, go ahead, but it's intended that you start from the beginning.

[Dynamo]

1 hour ago, Benjogami said:

I just don't accept that the wad shouldn't be pistol started or that bad pistol starts shouldn't be called out.

Sure. But when MtPain states, as he does in the video, that "he wanted to experience [MAP24] the way the author intended", by pistol starting a map from a megawad notoriously not balanced around it, it comes off as more than a little disingenuous. Which is to say: if you want to make life harder for yourself by pistol starting, that's totally fine and more power to you, but blaming the mappers from decades ago for your own decision after the fact is completely unfair, especially given how undeservedly mean some of the complaints towards various authors (Chris Klie, Thomas Moller and a lot of the MM1 mappers to name just a few) ended up being in various episodes. Furthermore, I say this as someone who tests every map he makes through pistol start, and I regularly recommend to people whose projects I test to also build their maps with pistol start considerations. If MtPain liked 90s maps more than he does, as he clearly does not for the most part, by this point he might have tried to play Cleimos 2 on pistol start on his show - now that would be a sight to behold...

 

EDIT: On a more positive note, despite this and some other setbacks, I do want to say that I quite enjoyed this episode and I felt like it did a good job at bringing out the uniqueness of some of the Requiem maps. Even in the case of maps that I like and MtPain didn't (MAP12 being a notable example) I still felt the review was at least interesting. There are a few anomalies though. For example, what is going on at 6:02? The video talks about how boring it is to fight pinkies in that context, when there is a berserk pack standing millimeters away from the player, which would make punching demons much faster and more entertaining as it would then be possible to carve a way out of the trap before the pinkies converge upon the player. Also as a note: MAP21 originates, I believe, from a partially unfinished megawad called Beyond Doom: The Apocalypse - it's MAP18 in that one. That wad is extremely bizarre, with custom enemies such as walking barrels and zany new weapons, so it is not surprising that the map itself ends up being the fever dream that it is, considering where it originated from. This would have been cool to mention in the video but unfortunately nobody had written about the connection on the doomwiki so it slipped under the radar. Still a fun factoid I think.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Dynamo

[BiZ]

4 hours ago, roadworx said:

h.

 

as much as i appreciate your thoughts on modern wads, mtpain, i reeeeally wish you would realize that a lot of 90s wads weren't meant for pistol start. they were meant to be continuous experiences; the whole was oftentimes more important than the sum of its parts back then. pistol starts were only done if you died or were doing a speedrun. if you truly want to judge these maps based on how the authors meant them to be played, then you can't pistol start every single wad you play. i appreciate you, and i appreciate your opinions on modern wads, but come on now.

 

and i don't even really like requiem that much!! it's a cramped, undercooked mess of a megawad

 

We can look to the past to understand what the standard was then, but like all work, it will inevitably be judged by the standards now.

 

life can only be understood by looking backwards, but it must be lived forward...or something like that.

[roadworx]

4 minutes ago, BiZ said:

 

We can look to the past to understand what the standard was then, but like all work, it will inevitably be judged by the standards now.

 

life can only be understood by looking backwards, but it must be lived forward...or something like that.

if you're a professional literary critic, and you give a choose your own adventure book a low score because you read through it linearly and didn't understand it as a result, then nobody will take you seriously.

 

also, you do realize that continuous based wads are still made to this day, right? look at the magenta spire, it's made with this exact mentality

[Gibbitudinous]

Not every map needs to be easy or experienced at its most complete/fun from pistol start but they should be feasible to pistol start since pistol start was the back-up option from the beginning if you messed up so badly that you didn't have a viable save to reload from.

[Noiser]

I think mapsets should be made with any rulesets we want to.

[LadyMistDragon]

I dunno....there were only a few maps (07, probably 29 too) where it didn't feel all that balanced from a pistol start.

2 hours ago, Firedust said:

Ahahaha he really tore Requiem a new one

TBF memento mori 2 aged so much better than the two other megawads in the trilogy

Does he mention that in the video though? And having played it, I'm not sure I agree. Memento Mori 2 has some maps with serious bloat to them. It's probably a little less on the dull side than Memento Mori 1 but putting Map 15 and other such exceptions of incredibly strong maps aside, idk.

Edited September 5, 2023 by LadyMistDragon

[Firedust]

10 minutes ago, LadyMistDragon said:

I dunno....there were only a few maps (07, probably 29 too) where it didn't feel all that balanced from a pistol start.

Does he mention that in the video though? And having played it, I'm not sure I agree. Memento Mori 2 has some maps with serious bloat to them. It's probably a little less on the dull side than Memento Mori 1 but putting Map 15 and other such exceptions aside, idk.

He doesn't mention MM2 explicitly save a few map comparisons - I was just expressing my own opinion. Will be interested in his take on MM2 regardless, but surely it can't sink lower than that C- for Requiem lmao, which is only exacerbated by the fact that he's usually fairly generous with his final mapset grades (plenty of A's, A-'s, and B+'s  awared in the show iirc)

Edited September 5, 2023 by Firedust

[Firedust]

Also, to give my worthless two cents on what some of the kind folks are saying in the thread about pistol starts and what not - I'd like to echo the sentiment that mappers are obviously free to do whatever the hell they like with their own creations, so if you want to make something balanced for continuous play, then by all means do so, BUT please specify it in the txt document, because otherwise players will automatically assume that pistol starts have been accounted for (they've been a thing since... OG Doom afaik lol) and they will criticise the mapper(s), justifiedly so imo, by virtue of not being warned before playing. I have no idea what Requiem's story is with regards to this thing, so MtPain27's criticisms being fair or not rests entirely on whether there's something in the text file that explicitly states NOT BALANCED FOR PISTOL STARTS, which btw is NOT the same as CHALLENGING for pistol starters.

[BiZ]

1 hour ago, roadworx said:

if you're a professional literary critic, and you give a choose your own adventure book a low score because you read through it linearly and didn't understand it as a result, then nobody will take you seriously.

 

also, you do realize that continuous based wads are still made to this day, right? look at the magenta spire, it's made with this exact mentality

 

heh, good thing he isn't reviewing choose your own adventure books.

 

What I took from your original post (and this is just my interpretation) is that you thought the review format should change to accommodate this wad or other old wads. I don't personally see the value in it and would rather the criteria and metrics for judgement stay consistent, otherwise the outcomes (grades) are useless. If an A level is "fun and visually memorable" this week, but "short and has ammo for the gun I picked up in the last map" next week, then the grades get muddy.

 

So my point was that while maybe this thing was done a certain way in the past, now its being looked at with this different lens and it either stands on its own legs or doesn't. And this always happens through time inevitably.

[Gibbitudinous]

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

[roadworx]

3 hours ago, BiZ said:

 

heh, good thing he isn't reviewing choose your own adventure books.

 

What I took from your original post (and this is just my interpretation) is that you thought the review format should change to accommodate this wad or other old wads. I don't personally see the value in it and would rather the criteria and metrics for judgement stay consistent, otherwise the outcomes (grades) are useless. If an A level is "fun and visually memorable" this week, but "short and has ammo for the gun I picked up in the last map" next week, then the grades get muddy.

 

So my point was that while maybe this thing was done a certain way in the past, now its being looked at with this different lens and it either stands on its own legs or doesn't. And this always happens through time inevitably.

then here's a solution to that: don't review wads that are meant for continuous. if you're going to judge something based on a specific playstyle, why try to force a wad that isn't meant to be for that playstyle to fit into that? if anything, that muddies the waters far more than if you were to review the wad based on how it's supposed to be played.

 

not to mention straight up insulting mappers because you just can't see their qualities. thomas möller, for example, is one of my favorite mappers because of how his layouts so often intersect in ways you simply don't see in most maps as well as how nasty some of his combat can be. it's actually really unique (not to mention difficult as hell to do when creating a layout) and even today you often don't see it outside a few examples in solitary maps. if you don't like it regardless, then that's perfectly fine. say the map is shit in your eyes, explain why, and move on. don't insult the creator because you can't see past your own narrow view of how a doom map should be. i know it can be great for comedy n stuff, but...come on now. instead of just shitting on the guy, at least be creative or something.

 

3 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

we get it, you're too cool for anything describing how you feel about something in a way that extends beyond an elementary level of reading.

 

mtpain's language can be pretentious and overly flowery (and the guy has an english degree so that kinda just comes with the territory lmao), but reviewing something and giving recommendations to others really isn't.

Edited September 5, 2023 by roadworx

[Roofi]

3 hours ago, Gibbitudinous said:

The grades are frankly the least useful or interesting part of any Dean of Doom episode, as grades are wont to be for most anything. The whole conceit of quantifying the quality and challenge of a Doom map is just an inherently pretentious but sadly normalized and expected way of framing sentiments like "I liked/disliked it" or "I found it easy/hard".

 

For me it's one of the most important part. Mtpain27's videos would not be the same without those grades. Of course it's inherently subjective but it's always thrilling when Mtpain gives an A+ to a map for instance.

[Monsieur E]

The discussion around classic wads and not being designed around pistol starts got me digging around a bit and I found a couple of relevant discussion points from Capellan.

From the Requiem DWMC thread: 
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1341217
"Requiem is for both continuous and pistol start play"

And from the Alien Vendetta DWMC thread:
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1671385
"If either Requiem or MM2 had continuous testing, I'm not aware of it. Most testing was done on a level by level basis, as they were submitted."

@Capellan Hope you don't mind the ping, I think it'd be interesting if you could give your insight on the pistol start vs continuous play perspective during the 90s. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Monsieur E

[WH-Wilou84]

To add up to Monsieur E's post, are we indeed sure Requiem wasn't designed with Pistol start in mind as well ?

I mean...
- Weapons are given in each map
- Maps were made by different people, and surely not in the order in which we play them (balancing them for continuous play only would then be a chore for mappers who'd have to wait for the finished maplist to rebalance their maps accordingly)
- UV Max demos exist for each map, which means that each map is at least playable on Pistol start

 

As regards to map 24, the text file explicitly states that you have to "find the remains" of your fallen comrades to proceed. Ammo drought and the need to find the not-secret ammo caches are the core concepts of this map, and these would simply be ruined if played continuously.

MtPain was indeed harsh on some maps though, particularly on maps 06 and 10 which I like immensely. But hey, to each their own.
 

[roadworx]

ah, was there no continuous testing? i guess i was mistaken then :p

 

if it was in fact designed for pistol start with only minor considerations for people playing through the map continuously, then, welp. i look like a complete ass lmfao. and, if that is the case, it kinda makes the ammo starvation in mm2 and requiem a bit odd as it feels like something designed to provide difficulty for people coming in from a previous map with lots of ammo. was it not, @Capellan? (sorry to ping you btw, i'm legitimately curious now. i might have to rethink how i'm making the wad i'm making rn if that's the case)

Edited September 5, 2023 by roadworx

[Roofi]

From my experience, I played hundred wads made before 2000 and few of them were very hostile to pistol-start. I played Requiem on pistol start years ago and it was fine most of the time. 

 

And as modern mappers, mapmakers from the 90' had to individually test their map.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Roofi

[Devalaous]

Reminds me, Capellan's notes on Requiem are why my Requiem patch swaps the CWILV graphics for Chaos Zone and Excoriations around. Kind of surprised MtPain didn't mention that trivia.